Are the figures on my certificate now out of date - should they be updated to the new rules?
What happens when I swithc between new & old rules sails?
Rick,
There is no need to change anything. When you buy a new set you might want to have a conversation with your sailmaker about whether there is any point changing the foot length.
Antony
But and the cross widths a new function of the foot?
So for the same foot length you get different cross widths under new rules?
Rick,
You are right, but in practice I am 100% certain that your sails will fit in to the new cross-widths with no change to your certificate.
The rule change took area from the 1/4 height that sailmakers could not even use (so your sails were well inside your maximum there) and put it at the 3/4 height (where you were previously pretty close to your maximum but will now have some space). People with better knowledge and understanding then me wrote the rule confident that this was the case for all sails made in recent years. The rule was proposed by our two main sailmakers (Tom Stewart and Kevan Bloor).
Antony
So if I want a new set then I will need my certificate updated - yes?
Rick, from what I understand the rule changes apply as from the date given.
They don't have retrospective action, otherwise everyone would be forced to buy a new set of sails with the result that the only ones who would be happy would be the sailmakers - esp. Tom and Kevan!
That means you can still (legally) use an old sail on your boat.
Cheers!
Jim.
Rick,
No, wrong. You can make another sail to your same luff and foot lenghts, but with slightly more area in the 3/4 height than your current sail.
I have ordered a new suit and have no intention of changing anything. I have to admit that I do not know if Tom (who has sails to the new measurement) has changed his certificate but I do not think that he has.
Antony
But wont yopur 3/4 measurement be greater than that shown on the certificate?
Finally understand your point! Yes, it might well be, but as long as your foot and luff measurements are consistent and the sails is within the new permitted cross-heights for those then it is fine. We are not going to re-issue all of the certificates in one year.
Before you ask where the new cross-height tables are, I am not sure if they are on this site yet.
Antony
Rick,
In any case whoever measures your new sails can simply write in the new cross-heights on your certificate, there is no need to re-measure anything it will simply bring your certificate up to the new rules. The only problem would have come if the new rule had meant that your old sails did not fit, and that is what we hvae been careful to avoid.
A
Hi everyone
In answer to all your questions. When you buy a new suit of sails to the new rules the measurer should enter your new maximum cross widths on the certificate as a new rig. The older sails will be treated as legal as long as they are dated before the change and conform to the previous cross widths requirements listed on the certificate.
Hope this answers all your queries.
Kevan
Just to throw my two pennys worth in; surely its the date that the sails were originally measured that counts, not the date they get transfered to another boat? Otherwise as John C says the market has just crashed on s/hand sails! Ah! Kevan and Tom rub your hands with glee..............
With boats that have 'old rules' and 'new rules' sails, in my 'umble position surely the 'old rules' sails can still be used providing the 'old rules' measurements for them are correct on the certificate?
Stevie,
It is possible that I have confused myself, and or others, in what I wrote above. My excuse, if i need one, is that I was not party to the preperation of this rule change as it was before I returned to the committee. I think that the answer to your question, as John Murrell suggests, is in the note to the relevant rule (11.3.6).
See:
http://www.national12.org/downloads/n12_class_rules.pdf
or:
Rule 11.3.6 Shall apply to sails first measured on or after 1st January 2007. Sails first measured before this date shall conform to the rules then in force, unless the Owner wishes to apply Rule 11.3.6 herein.
Antony
N3484
Steve,
My sails are actualy new not second hand and were cheap (relatively)because they are cut to the old rules and no on else wanted them at the end of 2006. I wrongly assumed that they would comply with the new rules.Our boat is 22 years old so the latest cut of sails didn't seem important. Will get my tape measure out at the weekend...and perhaps the scissors!
John
John,
My interpretation would be that if the mainsail was cut in 2006 to the old rules, but to suit the same foot measurement as you currently have you may be lucky that the 1/4 height cross width was so far inside the old limit that it is within the new limit. If the 1/4 height width is too big then you can move the black band until it fits. It is possible that this BB movement will mean the jib that goes with that sail may be too big and may require adjustment to reduce it's area.
My interpretation would be that once you have adopted the new rule cross widths according to rule 11.3.6 even your old sails will have to comply. If you have to move the foot BB to achieve this then your old jibs will be too large and would require adjustment. This is only my interpretation and I know there are others with a different view.
Regards,
Steve
N3436
Steve
Good news! Measured sail as best I can on my own in windy garden. 1/4 width in by about 15-20mm. Bad news 1/2 and 3/4 widths could be bigger. How close to the max widths do sails normally measure? Still need to check all other dims and a collar a measurer at waldringfield next week perhaps. Might even get the boat out if it's not too cold.
John
An interesting thread. I think that instead of concentrating on the cross heights you should consider the Luff (L) and Foot (F) measurements as these determine the area of the sail and the allowable cross heights are just derived from measurement F.
You are allowed one set of bands - ie one L and one F.
Dependent upon the date that the sail was measured you are allowed different cross heights.
When I check measure a rig I would.
1- Check L and F.
2- Determine what is marked on the sail - both measurements AND the date.
3- Measure the sail myself
4- Compare my measurements to those marked
5- Compare my measurements to those allowed by reference to the original measurement date.
So from 2007 onwards you have one set of bands (L and F) but potentially two sets of allowable cross heights.
In 2007 you can build a main sail which likely has a similar 1/4 height to your existing main sail (as few were built to maximum) but can have a lot more at the 1/2 and 3/4 than you were allowed. You do not need to change either L or F.
The real issue pertains to 11.5.5 which is a subsection of 11.5 MARKING AND RECORDING OF SAIL MEASUREMENTS.
11.5.5 Mainsail area, maximum permitted jib area, together with L and F measurements and maximum permitted mainsail cross widths shall be recorded on the certificate. The sail plan may be altered within these Rules, provided that the sails and spars are re-measured by a NTOA Approved Class Measurer. The new details shall be entered on the certificate and the old dimensions deleted.
I think that there is a potential ambiguity in the wording of the rule as it clearly only allows one set of cross widths to be recorded on the certificate and I do not believe that this is the intention and that common sense should be applied. Alternatively the rule could be amended to read as follows
11.5.5 SUGGESTED REWORDING Mainsail area, maximum permitted jib area, together with L and F measurements shall be recorded on the certificate. The sail plan may be altered within these Rules, provided that the sails and spars are re-measured by a NTOA Approved Class Measurer. The new details shall be entered on the certificate and the old dimensions deleted.
I would stay with the former as in the long term the recording of cross widths helps the use of the certificate, even if a little confusing during change over.
John