Messages

It seems to me that much of the growth in the Class currently is from people with a similarish background to me - and this is reflected in the demand for recent ACs.  These are the folks that we need to support and encourage to become active.  The ACs although make up the largest numbers account for around 4-5% of the Gill turnouts (exception 70th).  Although there are special AC prizes maybe wer'e still not hitting the mark with what is needed.  The 70th event seems to show people will be willing to travel and as commented before maybe we need an annual N12 'rally' to get folks together.  realistically growth is not going to come from yoof sailing - but once the yoofs mature they may want something else.  One issue though is how to persuade 'returners' to get a 12 vs say an RS or Topper type 'low maintenance' has 'sporty' extras.  We are somewhat of a niche but if all us niches sailed there would be lots of Ns around.

Current conclusion currently seems to be maybe a couple more Gill events - can these be held at 'traditional' locations (such as Trent) so the ACs will feel less handicapped.  At the local / Regional level possibly add more events (but each area needs to determine what it can support) - these don't have to be traditional Open type format.  If we can get a few more folks hooked on the 12 through the low cost AC route then hopefully they will develop and possibly aspire to the DB (not that there's anything wrong with an AC (except bailing)).

We can keep discussing or get out there find the people / Clubs and start to find out what they actually want out of their Association.

Are we doing enough still to promote the Class - almost weekly now the Fireflys are touting their 100+ at the Nationals - why aren't we??  The Firefly sailor may also be in a similat situation as the 12s - how come they 'seem' to be doing better (all subjective!).

Kean

I think some of you have missed th epoint I was making - I AGREE I'm not advocating going off doing Opens very weekend - I have a family of 4 boys (good crew distribution weights) and an old house that still needs work on.

I also recognise there are very few Clubs in the SW that seem to have anything like a fleet and building one up is VERY dificult.  The 12 is an ideal boat at my Club - but many folks just go and buy a plastic fantastic Topper type 'family / racer'.  Three may be some that can't afford / would prefer a more tradiitonal boat and the AC is a great way to get a decent boat at a low price.  The upgrade though can be steeper (not sure if this puts folks off).

Yes I'm advocating more 'events' in the SW but we need to look at the format of these - give folks more opportunity to sail together for those that are spreadout (SW is quite large area from deepest Cornwall upto top of Glos) - so maybe having a few more 'local' events would encourage those folks out - even the 'novices' may be OK if they can get help / support from other 12s.  Starcross has done well in providing a good 12 environment - assume this is also down to having keen / supportive people as others have said.

Clearly there's no one answer but first step is to at least identify where we all are and to set up some sort of network and find out what people actually want.  I recognise this forum also will pick up the more active members - hence asking to find SW Club reps.

Kean

http://ns14.org/

Looks interesting - isn't the Tasar a relative of the NS14?

Some good discussion and input from many folks - but maybe forums like this only get to the 'hard core' of the Class anyway.  A couple of observations on numbers - 04 & 05 Gill series each attracted around 90+ boats but in each case 19 boats qualified.  Of the qualifies the majority are the dBs - usually only 2 or 3 ACs qualify but mnay of the ACs make up the took place in a couple of events.
The Burton week numbers also have been dropping.  I'm sure it will pick up this year for the 70th - would be interested to see who's coming.

From both my personal experience and observations of the Class;

Many (if not most) have childrenand quite often prefer to sail as a family
There seems to be many 'returners' folks who may have sailed as a junior / youth had a break and got back to sailing - often through the 'low cost' AC / ebay route
There are N12 families which seem to have been around for a while and sometime the youth comes through that - but are we attracting other youth sailors?
Doesn't look like we know where folks sail / what their preferences are - if we could put together some soort of database or with the NTOA renewal / handbook show where people sail this could also help to create the Club nuclei (sp??) - although there may be other reasons why people choose one club over another.

Personally I'd like to see more local events - possibly culminating in a regional champs - some classes make one event (e.g. last) non-discardable.  These don't have to be pure racing and some sort of a mix between training and racing maybe needed - but would these be supported by those that want the pure racing?  If we want the Class to continue the depth of knowledge of the top of the Class needs to be passed down - I'm sure many would happily do this and give their time.  Maybe we need folks to 'commit' to attending the new local events to help planning and requesting Clubs to support.

There is not one right answer here and we will never please all the people all the time - how do we formalise this discussion - would tis get discussed at the AGM at BW?  We may indeed already be too late for 2007 sailing calendar planning and maybe not get the input needed from all the membership but not making some changes will see a continual decline (having petrol prices so high doesn't help much!).  Should we even be discussing the format / length of BW?  As mentioned previously we have a history but its up to us if we are to have a future.

Lunchtime rantings over - back to work!

Kean

Ok - so I'm volunteering for more work.  Mike I agree with your comments on competing time.  Initailly it would be good to know what boats we have that are 'active' and list out the Clubs being sailed.  This would be a help in maybe re-defining Regions or how to set up Gill events.

I'm quite happy to have a go at putting together a SW regional listing - at least get the Clubs listed and maybe just getting forum replies like this to identify whos sailing where.

I think fewer events are meeting needs of the core but at the expense of those who aren't prepared to travel / commit the time.

Good debate!

Kean

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/National-12-sailing-dinghy_W0QQitemZ170010468613QQihZ007QQcategoryZ98955QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

So maybe more one day events - maybe do a bit of training / setup in morning then have races in afternoon?  Should the races be 'formal' races and count for the qualifying series OR should there be events of  amore 'fun' nature where we use the handicaps of the different developments?  Perhaps we set up the series so you have to attend a number of 'regular' opens and a number of 'handicap' opens??

By identifying where everyone is sailing maybe we can provide more opportunities for those that don't want to travel too far can still sail a few events.

I may be needing some regional help so if you want to volunteer from the deep South - would be great.  Sounds like we have some similar needs / thoughts.

Kean

Thats my point we have more boats - at least;

1 SSCSC (me) & a Vintage that doesn't sail
1 or 2 at Whitefriars
2 at Chippenham
2 Frampton (maybe more) - Brian Owns both
BCYC - there's quite a few
Evesham may now be empty...

Can't comment on the rest - but maybe if we redefined some of the areas or allowed 'joint' Opens e.g spinnaker could be both Thames & SW at same time.  Encouraging these sorts of folks out with a local circuit may help to get numbers back or else you're right it dwindles down to a hardcore that will travel and the rest sail at local Clubs.

Kean (new ropes on order)

Congrats to the team on putting together the latest copy of Ratchet.

Per the request from our new awaiting Chairman I thought I'd kick off a discussion.

I'd like to have more opportunity to sail against 12s - I guess there are relatively few Clubs that have a fleet and we seem to be quite thinly spread around.  I've tried to attend a few Opens this year but like many of us have family commitments to balance out.  The soultion may be in our own hands - for example the N12 SW circut consists of;

Bristol     Gill
Avon    
Salcombe    
Starcross     Gill
Salcombe    

Compare this to the South West Solo circuit (which are all one days)
Bristol
Corus
Sutton Bingham
Bowmoor
Salcombe
Spinnaker
Chew Valley
Llandegffedd
Frampton
Teign
Avon
Cotswold
South Cerney

I think there may be 12s at mnay of these Clubs.  How do we get more events so less travelling may be needed for the 'less serious' whilst still making these quite well attended.  Can we share more Opens or possibly just have a seperate start and join in with existing Club racing?  Could the format be changed at some of these events to maybe the the N12 handicaps - again allow some of the older boats a chance to compete.  Would this encourage more boats out to support local small fleets and so show the Class is active and attract new members?  This could provide a useful way of answering some of the techinal questions that seem to come up in the forum where new owners need help setting up boats, swapping gear etc.  Clubs start to plan their 07 programmes soon after the Summer ends so its a good time to see if there are sailors at each Club who could request an event.  To help support this we need to create local mailing lists of owners - this could also help to identify boats not actively being sailed and rotting in dinghy compounds.

The number of 12s is similar to the Firefly / Merlin / Solo (UK only??) but they seem to attact some bigger fleets and more active circuits (IMHO).

Also using the web resources to identify boats / Clubs (the Cherub site has quite a nice database type approach) this could help to promote the fleet and show that we care about the entire Class and its history.

Looking forward to Burton week and some discussions - where can I find a list of entrants for that?  The Fireflies have over 100 enetred for their 60th, Merlins there's a listing of entrants there too.  May encourage a few more out if folks new BW is not dominated by the DBs.

Just a few thoughts  :B lets discuss  

Kean

Hey - don't knock the oldies - my MUM has just got an RS Vareo and she's 70+ !!  Imagine having your Mum fly past on a schreeming reach one day!!!

Kean

I know Jim at Whitefriars - not aware of any at Chippenham - that must be a small bit of river there.  Do you have any contacts?  Would they be willing to travel for a bit of an event (maybe our gravel pit willl seem too big for them??).

Brian Kitching is over at Frampton and has 2 of his own - just not many to sail against regularly.

Kean

'Mr Bill' where are you sailing?  Boat was in Evesham -  not too far from Cotswolds (South Cerney) lonely single 12 - are you still local?

Kean
N3339 (no dangly pole - bungee went ping! )

FYI - try these guys out for rope - seem to be MUCH cheaper than the normal suppliers.  They have an ebay shop - got the prices and finalising a list with them - not actually used them yet though!!  Seem to be limited in what they stock but for ropes etc seem good and provide some helpful advise.

enquiries@ukyachtriggingsupplies.com

I know there's an argument about supporting a full service sort of guy like P&B etc but not sure they shouldn't be competitive in the market place.

Kean
N3339 - awaiting a few new strings

Anyone taken a look at their new site?  http://www.uk-cherub.org/

One thing I like is they have a page with pics / history of each boat.  I think this is a real plus for boats with a design history vs SMOD (or one designs) - maybe save some of the many questions here and provide more history and current use.  May also help to identify other 'local' boats for support etc.  I'm sure with recent 70th at Pitsford we have many more pics of boats we could use.  Would help to supplement the design guide - owners could add in notes about what they like best (conditions etc).

The Cherubbers seem friendly and maybe we could borrow some of their web techniques.  We have a history so we can show it off (RS site would be grey, grey, pink, blue, grey, grey etc (anyone seen those awful salmon ish coloured Fevas??)

Anyone got an idea how to start this off - would be willing to help out.

Kean