Messages

Kean,
Without wishing to ask your age... I would check the directions  before you set off.  I think that the club has changed by a distance of several  miles, it is now in a village called Farnham that is North East of Harrogate and nowhere near Ripon.

See you there,
Antony

Jo and I are certainly planning to be there, a great club and the promise of lots of 12s of all ages... why would we miss that.

Antony
N3484

Good point John, I forgot that I had sold it to Julian!!
Antony

Charlotte Sometimes was owned from new by Jon Ibbotson.  I think, although he or Charlotte (his sister), might correct me that the name is a reference to a song by (perhaps) The Cure.  The boat won a lot of open meetings in the time that they owned her, I mean lots and lots, before the lure of a Double Bottom took them in the direction of a Waller Chapter.

Jon sold her to a very nice guy at Grafham who got too involved in childrens sailing to ever have time to travel with her.

Antony Gifford

Paul,
Point three is a good one.  There are two kinds of single-bottom boat with numbers higher than N3414.

1. The two or three amatuer built boats that were finished late and so have late numbers (from memory these might include 3422 and 3434).  In my view any race committee should use their discretion and allow them to compete for any AC prizes and be regarded as Ac boats.
2.  Boats, with yours the current best example, built after all of the signficant rule changes but opting to not have a full DB.  The last Committee discussion on this subject, as I recall, concluded that there was not reason not to regard these as fully competitive modern 12s able to win any prize that a DB boat could win.  You can call it what you want, but Crazy D is certainly not old or an AC boat!  I would like to see more people build boats with a layout like you now have, as i can see it being a competitive and attractive option for people wanting a bit more comfort and stability.

To a previous post, or two, I think that the Gill events at Trent Valley, West Riding and Ripon are good examples of the willingness of the class to host major events at venues were the advantages of the modern boats are limited and (at least at TV) possibly non-existent.  

Antony

Giles,
I think that you have missed some points, and made some good ones.

This thread was explicitally about buying older DB boats, because that is what the author of the first posting wanted to talk about.  There are people that want to come into the fleet with a DB boat, rather than an AC boat, and we need to cater to all of the demand that is out there, so this is a relevant thread.

There are, as you correctly point out, far more AC boats in the world.  The NTOA does not organise a single event that is solely for the DB fleet.  It does organise Vintage events, and discusses regularly ways to attract more active 4-Planker and Ac activity at events that are organised.  The old boat prizes have existed in the fleet for decades, if there are better ways to encourage wider participation then let me know.  I very much hope that the NTOA Summer Party at Ripon will see the DB fleet as a small minority of a large and enthusiastic N12 fleet.

There is another issue, which has been discussed by the General Committee, that there is no coherent consitiuency of AC sailors that can be drawn into debating these issues.  If there was a volunteer, or a way to create a body, in the same way as the Vintage Wing, to represent the AC fleet at General Committee level then I would be happy to hear from them.  It is true that the Committee is primarily comprised of DB sailors, although far from exclusivly, but this is because they volunteer.

There is nothing that we as a class can do about the cost of rigs and sails.  The modern AC boats, such as a D8, have not depreciated meaningfully in 10 years, and so I am not sure I follow your point here.  If you try to put new sails on an old Lark or Firefly the equation looks at least as imbalanced as in our fleet.  A lot of us on the Committee, and dare I admit it very happily sailing our DB boats, put in a lot of time helping people track down and buy AC boats to enter the class and then training people whatever boat they show up with.

Finally, I am not aware of any meangingful rule change that is being discussed at present.  There are occassional discussions about low budget ways to enable heavier crew combinations to be competitive but at present the fact that the boat is only 12 feet long and quite light seem to be a block on any thought on this front.  I think that almost everybody that was involved in the class in the 1990s accepts that the rule changes were too sudden at that time, some should probably have happened in the 1980s and overall they should have taken more than 10 years rather than 3.  That is history, and something that we all have to deal with going forward.  

The NTOA as a body, and that includes the Chairman, has no doubt that it is working for all owners of National 12s, whatever their age (of them or their boat!).

Antony (no 'h')
Chairman, NTOA (1997-98, 2006-07)

Rick has a very clear understanding of what is one of the biggest issues for the NTOA at the moment.  The reason there are not enough DB boats for sale is that there are not enough being built.  The lack of 'starter' DB boats is preventing people from entering the class at that level, and holdling back the natural progression of people withing the class that has been a historic strength of the 12s.

While there is little that the NTOA can do to actually build boats it is a situation that we are trying to keep on top of.  Where we can we are encouraging people to express an interest in a new build if you have an interest (hence the posting from Meds two weeks ago) and in the near future we will probably try to track which older boats will come on to the market as the new boats are being ordered and built.

As most of you know there is plenty of interest in a new P&B package, but Tom is struggling to produce a product built to the standard we require.  This is not a problem unique to 12s, it is common to a lot of classes that need a high-quality and relatively high-tech build in small numbers.  The only way to help Tom is to give him an indication of how many boats are wanted, as a builder will always be more interest if the prospective pipleine is more than the initial one or two.  Sadly I have to say that I do not think that P&B are yet in a position to announce new plans for their product.

I personally think that the issue with new boats is more to do with how hard it is to put one on the water than it is to do with the final price.  In any case there is little we can do about the price and a bit we can do to explain and facilitate the process.  When cheap packages have been offered in the past it has been noticable that most have still opted to buy the 'grand prix' version.  THe best way to make a boat cheaper is to do more of the work yourslef, and that is still very possible.

Antony
Chairman, NTOA

I think, and somebody might correct me, that 3336 is a boat that was designed and home built by the 'legendary' Graham Ireland.  As is often the case the design is somewhat unproven and was never repeated.   Typically, and unsurprisingly, boats of this type sell for less than a simiilar age boat wiht a more proven heritage.

Email me directly if you want any more thoughts on this, or other boats that you are looking at.

Antony

EARLY-WARNING, there is now only a month left to get the cheaper entry prices for Burton Wk.  It is not too late to find accomodation and the week is shaping up to be a good one.  Needless to say it helps our organisation of the week to know numbers sooner rather than later, so you can help us to  and save money all in one go!!

Details & Entry Form on this site under EVENTS.

If you are still unsure as to whether you will enjoy Burton Wk, or considering taking the boat to one of the family sailing weeks, then get in touch with any questions.  If I don't know the answer I can find somebody that does!

Antony
Chairman, NTOA

NOR is available at:
http://www.salcombeyc.org.uk/res/user/207_notice-of-race-may-2007.doc

John Murrell at SYC might appreciate advanced notice of who is coming, but is wise enough not to expect a flood of entry forms through the post.

We are going down on Thursday so if anybody is around early let us know.

Not too late to book a house, Salcombe Holiday Homes or Coast & Country Cottages.  Negotiate with both, they can and do offer discounted long weekend rates at this time of year.

Antony

George,
The bouyancy test is not required for you to re-register.  If you fill in the re-registration form and send it, and the certificate, to Kevan Bloor then you will receive a year of membership of the NTOA and a new and valid certificate for the boat.  

Forms are at:
http://www.national12.org/downloads/ntoaapp.pdf

You do then have to complete the bouyancy section, by testing that the boat floats and signing it yourself.

Any problems send me an email,

Antony
chairman@national12.org

Sadly Jo and I will not be able to pop by to join you.  Interestingly it looks like there will be 3 good and reasonably attended 12 events this weekend, at Sth Cerney, Kippford and Pagham so nobody has any excuse for leaving their boat on the shore.

And, before James or Emma reads this I know that none of the above are within a 2 1/2 hour drive of Penzance and I am sorry about that we would love to see you more often.

A

Stolen straight from the Lark site, and Ruth is very efficient........

First of two starts on Saturday is at 1300 with a 1200 briefing; 1000 on the Sunday for 3 races.

There is dinner and dancing arranged and we are also sharing with the National 12 fleet so the dancefloor should be busy. There is car and boat parking within the club grounds and the club have arranged with one of the neighbours who owns some land near the club to allow camping on their land for a small charge. You can camp here Friday and Saturday night.

see you there

Ruth


Directions

From the West: Turn right at the third A27 Chichester bypass roundabout onto the B2145 (Huston Road). After 1 mile fork left onto the B2166 (Lagness Road) then at the Walnut Tree pub go straight over onto Pagham Road. After 4 miles turn left onto Sea Lane. After 250yds do a quick right-left onto Beach Road and the Club is straight ahead.

From the East: Just over the large railway bridge on the A27 Chichester bypass, take the second exit off the roundabout (signed to Pagham). After 1 mile turn left at the Walnut Tree pub onto Pagham Road and follow the above instructions.

Zippy was one of the first batch of Winder/P&B boats from their Feeling Foolish mould.  Zippy is probably my best ever boat purchase. She was delivered, fully measured and calibrated, to the Easter Egg at Waldringfield in 1998.  With new crew for the year (Rich Bailey) we were 2nd that weekend and spent the whole season sharing out the prizes with Tom Stewart and Liz Ross in their sister ship (3426), cumulating in winning the Silver National at Weymouth that summer.

There is no doubt that these DB boats were a speed breakthough and so our ability to get out of trouble and back to the front of the fleet was very helpful, but equally Rich is a great crew and Zippy was quick even for her generation from day one.

I sold her at the end of 1999 to my sister, Frances, as I was off to New York for an indefinite period.

Antony