National12 class rules wiki

[philipcosson]

I have gone ahead and done it. Here is a 21st century method of debating/evolving the class rules.
http://national12.wetpaint.com/

In doing this I have noticed several discrepancies - for example there is a note refering to clasue 5.2.2 (which doesn't exist)


The way I envisage anyone using it is to add explanations or comments to the 'thread' for any individial entry - like the good explanations that are already here about certain rules.
The actual entries can be edited for grammar/spelling etc. at will.
The descriptions of the clauses can be altered at will - these were the best i could do in the time, and i gave up toward the end (when it became too technical)
The content of the clauses could be altered by anybody after debate - like changing the length to 13 feet!
Clauses can be deleted after debate - like 11.7.2

The original entry can always be reverted back to. And of course anybody else can reedit your edit
Enjoy or ignore

Phil

[philipcosson]

I've copied all the discussion that has occured here (lately!) to the specific clause in the rules.
It does look like I have trouble holding any one opinion for less than a minute, but that is a fair representation of reality anyway.
I do think this will be a helpful exercise even if it is just that the rules have a search feature. Remember to create a 'Thread' if you want to start discussion
Phil

[mutt]

looks good to me.
well done.
 

[paul turner]

Sorry guys - but what is the point of this?!? What is wrong with having the debate in one single where we all know the discussion is going on - ie on the NTOA website? Is this not a suitably 21st century forum?

[mutt]

Well just look at anthony's and Wondering's comments when I made the original postings. This isn't a good forum for discussing the rule set as its best to keep the discussion thread tightly coupled to the rule in question. The Wiki does that very well. 
If you want to bring the wiki into the N12 website then please do but its better than these discussion pages.

[Jimbo41]

Sorry guys - but what is the point of this?!? What is wrong with having the debate in one single where we all know the discussion is going on - ie on the NTOA website? Is this not a suitably 21st century forum?

Seconded! Everyone should be able to see the debate where you can avoid having "guests" taking the P**s....

[Antony (Guest)]

Matt,
I have no problem with this forum being used to discuss the rules, and i apologise if i left that impressoin.  What i was suggesting was that one thread was better than 7 or 8 and some discussion of the merits of any change rather than one liners would make for a more considered debate.  Personally i prefer the old fashioned debate at the bar.....
Antony

[mutt]

Matt,
I have no problem with this forum being used to discuss the rules, and i apologise if i left that impressoin.  What i was suggesting was that one thread was better than 7 or 8 and some discussion of the merits of any change rather than one liners would make for a more considered debate.  Personally i prefer the old fashioned debate at the bar.....
Antony

 
sorry I wasn't infering that I was annoyed by your response. Its just that I have a different comment to make on each of these rules - so one single posting, listing all the rules I find a littel odd, wouldn't be very easy to respond to. I havn't got a point to make collectively, but I think each rule is worthy of discussion in its own right - and the wiki would do that pretty well.

[philipcosson]

What is the point? well...
Some of these discussions rumble on and then fizzle out and nothing ever gets changed. I was hoping that the wiki might demonstrate which particular clauses are the real contentions points. It will also be useful to have both sides of the argument in one place alongside the rule.
Once these are identified, the wiki allows a new possibility, anyone can change the actual clause. This of course will not actually change the rules, but asks for a positive contribution rather than a moan. Anybody can of course change it back. Over time, if the 'class' strength of feeling is represented, the new clause might become reasonably stable - and it could then be a candidate for incorporation into the official rules.
Wiki's have mechanisms to support this principle; voting, warning of a up comming change, giving time for people to respond, and reverting to previous versions, for example. Discussion groups have no real object apart from the discussion.
The process is likely to be very messy however, and possibly doomed to failure. Contributors should recognise from the outset that a difference of opinion is not a personal attack. And that many contrbutors will not have thought through the implications in detail before posting and will be interested to hear the oposite argument. As an example - i was firmly of the opinion that taking correctors out was a good thing, until i heard Antony's contribution about this benefitting the lightweights more than the heavyweights. This hadn't occured to me before; now I'm not in favour of removing the lead!
The fact I might have wasted a couple of hours of my life doing it is for me to worry about (I did it as an academic exercise, i'm thinking of using a wiki as an assignment for one of my modules and I wonderd how long it took to set one up - now I know!)
The first thing to do is to capture all points of view about all clauses (many of the clauses will not be controversial in the slightest, so this isn't as onerous as you might think - many hand make light work). I know that previous threads have turned up interesting information about the rules. I would be grateful if people could help pulling all this discussion into one place. If you have had a bee in your bonet about any particular clause, you would like to suggest a new clause, or you want to nominate a clause for deletion. Go ahead!
Regards
Philip

[JohnMurrell]

Now correct me if I am wrong, but aren't there some spaces on the Class assn committee? Surely if people are so concerned with the wording of the rules why don't they try to get elected to the committee - that way they can really not only have their say but possibly, with reasoned argument, can talk the issues through with the Technical Committee.
Whinging on a forum is all well and good but it does tend to undermine the people who put in hours on your behalf; believe me I should know!!! I always find it amazing how many people are prepared to moan, groan and critisise until they are offered a committee position and they then miracioulsy shut up!
 
Ah! is that a cloud of dust I see disappearing into the distance?

[philipcosson]

John,
It's got nothing to do with undermining the committee. I thought it might be a way of harnessing the rank and file to work toward a positive outcome rather than just moan. I have been on the forum for a number of years and it annoys me as much as anybody else when the talk turns to moans about the rules; not because of the dabate, but BECAUSE nothing ever happens.

This was in response to Mr 'wondering' wishing we went somewhere else to discuss the rules. I don't agree with his sentiment (i.e. 'don't discuss this at all') But I figured that a wiki was possible and would be more constructive, and... see my other post.
In fact, rather than undermine the TC, I have just done them a service in providing a neat repository of the current rules and a web based method of discussing them which should save them time and energy in the future.
I could make editing a privelige for just comittee members (with all able to add threads and comments to threads) . That actually sounds like quite a good idea to me. Would you support that?


As for volunteering for committees; here come the excuses...
1) I live in the north east of england - when was the last time an AGM was held within 100 miles of me?
2) I have been unable to drive since January - and am unlikely to sail again until next June at the earliest. In my more depressed moments I think I may never sail again - so this might become academic anyway.

3) I am building a house, setting up a business and finishing a doctorate on top of family and work commitments and I'm already on my professional bodies national committee.
4) I think there are more qualified candidates

Philip