2nd hand boats

[Emma G]

[Tim L (Guest)]

[quote by=Grebesailor link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool1,m=1178611316,s=21 date=1178825042]Whoa, there.

At the risk of offending some, lets look at the class as a whole.

We have 3500+ boats, up to 90 or so of which are DB.

This leaves 3409 which fall into the categories from vintage to AC.

The whole tone of this thread follows the trend of the past few years, summed up by DB "good", AC "entry level, we'll chuck it a few minor prizes to allow you to come and keep numbers up, but chuck it asap and get the holy grail (DB)"

I sail an AC design because I like it, it's better suited to my sailing requirements which don't, at the moment , include the championships. (Why just make up the numbers?)Yes, I would spend money on it to upgrade the rig, foils and some fittings, but I don't because the prices of AC's have been totally depressed by the obsession with DB and the investement can not therefore be justified. Look at the prices of new rigs

The DB boats create a quantum leap within the class, both in terms of cost and therefore availability, instead of a smooth progression from old to newer to new the re is only one option, new if you now want to enter and be competitive.

This was fairly obvious from the start. The Merlins don't have the problem, and it is therefore worrth upgrading some old boats until one arrives at the point where an upgrade or a newer boat becomes a toss up.

Older 12's now have no incentive to upgrade, hence the numbers that are rotting away in club dinghy parks. (The cost of new sails can be more than an AC is worth.)

If Anthony wants to create bigger fleets, etc then stop marginalising the majority of 12's in existence and say, to those people who don't like the class rule as it is, and the discipline of development within it, go and create a class and organisation of your own. I'm not anti-development, the Merlins develop within a structure that goes back to the origins of the class in a smooth progression, but the quantum leaps aren't there.

I have been trying to interest a colleague in an unused AC 12 in our dinghy park. His response is, no point, it can't compete with the newer boats. He has therefore acquired a Firefly.

Giles
N3319

[/quote]

1) The Merlins aren't a 'slow progression' - apart from a few tweaked versions of the Tales they've pretty much been one design for 20years.  My last club had a significant Merlin fleet and one of the keen helms had both a plastic Tales and an older wooden design, both with carbon rigs and new sails.  He always went a lot slower in the older boat.  There definitely seems a step change there too and most of the Merlin sailors upgrade to a Tales asap as no other design is really considered competitive.

2) Most AC owners who hold off from coming to event due to the 'don't want to make up the numbers' attitude a) probably wouldn't drive a DB any faster anyway. b) would learn a lot faster if they came along  c) find that the class is a lot friendlier to people sailing older boats than in one designs.

3) Minor prizes?  Maybe ask yourself why you go sailing - will you only go to an event if you're guaranteed a big prize...?

4) The cost of a new sail for my old Europe came to 3/4 of the price I paid for the complete boat.  The single, small dacron sail also cost more than a complete new set of kevlar 12 sails.....  Nothing particular to 12s in this phenomenon.

Most of the problem is perception and people not being honest with themselves about their level of sailing.  When two of us at Starcross upgraded to DB boats we heard a lot of 'oh, we can't compete with you anymore' from most of the AC sailors - despite the small issue that we usually finished a leg or two ahead in our ACs anyway.  In fact as we upgraded about a couple of months apart the one with the AC consistently beat the DB.

Go figure.  But any marginalisation is only in your head - ACs are a valid, welcome and often very competitive at all 12 events.

[janeysailor12]

[quote by=Jimbo41 link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool1,m=1178611316,s=4 date=1178634048]Rick,

Oh, yes, I'll be travelling the 1400km to BW this year....

Cheers!
Jim.

[/quote]

No!!! surely not!! you not coming to BW??  we'd NEVER have guessed!!  

Janey

[Jimbo42]

[Jimbo42]

[philipcosson]

I think there are 2 issues...

I was new to sailing at 38 - I have had a step learning curve and will never be competitive at burton week, whaterver boat I'm in.

People like me don't want a shiny new boat - because we will (quite rightly) be sniggered at in the mode of "who the hell does he think he is?" or "that boat is wasted on him"

The point is that I used to put up with an old beaten up car and a shabby house in my youth, and I have grown tired of doing that, and I have a nice car now and a nice house. I would like a nice N12 that I can be proud of.

I don't have time for the do it yourself option (car loan and mortgage to pay for!) so I would like a nice second hand boat with a nice combi trailer and cover that looks the business.

My point is that a new build is intimidating for a new starter to the class - they want a nice, sorted, second hand boat.

An AC boat would do just fine, with carbon rigg, new sails and a nice combi. One that has already been fully 'bimbled' by an expert in the class. This can be sailed on adjusted handicap at any club and be competitive against RS200 and albacore, and can be taken to open meetings.

I think the AC and DB issue is a lesser issue than the condition of many of the second hand boats on the list.

Phil
N3253 - still looking for someone to do her up (Mike Saul is too busy and Mike Cooke too far away!)

[Jimbo42]

[angus]

Get out on the water and have some fun too many people are making excuses in stead of sailing, Yhe article I wrote about the Scottish championships was writen to shoe people you coulb be crap and still have fun. for what its worth we have stepped up from a China Doll to a crusader (Ithink you all know that by now) and are going slower than ever if I got a debee the mirrors would be passing me!!!! Por Rohan I think hes looking for a new helm.
By the way mixing my threads as ever the sugar is working fine it was the shoes that had worn smooth on the sand in my China doll. Now I just need a keyboard that works prperly.
I think I may have wandered of the point of the original post but the sad fact is if you cann't buy what you want second hand then you just have to buy new. It is a sad fact of life that people now expect to jump into things and go. that is probably why there are only 90 odd dee bee boats about.
I must go now and get the huskies ready for Wintersett.

[Jane Wade]

[Jimbo41]

[philipcosson]

[greight expectations]

[quote by=angus link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool1,m=1178611316,s=37 date=1179092796]Get out on the water and have some fun too many people are making excuses in stead of sailing, Yhe article I wrote about the Scottish championships was writen to shoe people you coulb be crap and still have fun. for what its worth we have stepped up from a China Doll to a crusader (Ithink you all know that by now) and are going slower than ever if I got a debee the mirrors would be passing me!!!! Por Rohan I think hes looking for a new helm.

But you still keep coming Angus and Rohan,  keep it up! In particular as you say its getting out and practising n improving that matters. May get down to watch(!!?) over the weekend so don'y go home early.

Roger

PS has somebody spilt hot chocolate over your key board too?