what is an Admirals Cup boat?

[Paul Turner N2487/3500 (Guest)]

Can someone direct me to where I can find the current definition of an Admirals Cup boat, please? We are having some debate about this at TVSC!

Suppose, hypothetically, you took the double bottom out of a new yot and installed bouyancy bags and the boat complied with the 1996 (?) rules, would this qualify as an AC boat?

[Richard]

Paul
There is a Definition on page Nine of this years hand book. The one with the class rules and all the numbers.
Richard
N2134

[martin 1262]

Paul,

Are you thinging of modifying N3500???

  :-/

Martin

[JohnMurrell]

Paul,

Basically if the DB is removed you become an AC boat, but beware that you still have to adhere to the 1996 rules as Ricahrd says.

Having got hold of 3003, I have the reverse of the dilemma - when does an AC boat cease to be an AC boat but a DB boat, also not sure if my brother has got his head around that one when he cut part of the floor out of 3435.

Isn't this the joy of the Twelves, we can play around to our hearts content, posing problems for measurers to scratch their heads over..............................(drat I forgot I am one!!!)


John

[Kevin]

This is something I agree needs better definition. In a simial vein, when is a vintage boat not a vintage boat? Is it okay to replace lumps of wood, centreboards, etc with carbon or should the ruling be that each boat has to be original as built when new. A bit difficult to enforce wooden masts and cotton sails though.

I feel what we need is a guiding principle rather than a defining rule which will always have loopholes for those creative enough to exploit them.

Kevin

[Paul Turner N2487/3500 (Guest)]

Many thanks for the responses and advice so far:

1. I am going to modify N3500 because although I have limited clearance from the consultant to re-start sailing following treatment, I can't do "deep squats" as my knees won't take the low clearance of a DB boat. May have to raise the boom too, but let's wait and see! Basically it will cost less to modify and keep, than to sell at a loss and buy another 12.

2. Vintage boats - there is a basic definition which says that it has to be clinker but there is a feeling that the introduction of carbon foils and spars is "not cricket". I have been debating with Ken Goddard a revised definition, and this brings us onto.....

3. 4 Plankers (now sailing with the Vintage)! We need a definition for these, possibly including an age ceiling? And a new name! Wha ;)t about "Veteran"?

[THG]

The dinghy record shows which boats are 4 plank - why not use this guide?

As for name why not use 'Classic' - bit like the CVDRA do.

The records list doesn't show which are self draining - any boat which is substantially modified internally either to add or remove a false floor should be re-measured - if it passes the self draining rules thne it can't be an AC - the measuremnet record should show this.  Never seena 'Designer Soap Dish' but I assume if this is still measured as a self drainer if I copied the layout then my boat would still be an AC?  As for DBs with removing part of the floor it would need to be measured again!

Upgrading older boats - depends on what you are trying to level the playing field against - an old Vintage boat can compete as an AC say in the Gill - taking the same vintage to a Vintage meeting then you could argue you should apply the rules of the time to see if it passes or not!!  The alternative is to use 'adjusted' handicaps - CVDRA do this too take a standard boat and then modify say for a newer rig / sails etc.

Rules seem to be there to be bent by the 12s to try gain an advantage - isn't that development?  Depends on how people want to be involved in Class activities.  I suspect many of the Vintage / Veteran / Classic folks want even racing for the boats as they were.

Being able to 'pimp' an old 12 must be quite a good way to improve a boat without paying out for a newer one.  Also nothing stopping anyone building a modern single bottom or some sort of AC DB hybrid to suit needs - what it actually gets classed as depends on the measurers and any rules interuptations.

Per previous mails looks like there is a market window for an 'older' persons 12 to allow sailing to continue with space for the zimmer frame under the boom.  

Kean

[Jimbo42]

[John Meadowcroft]

Paul

You raise an interesting point.  The Admirals Cup was presented to the association in 1956 by Cecil Rogers.  It was presented as an "old boats" trophy during Burton Week to encourage owners of such boats which were likely to become outclassed.  This applied particularly at that time when the construction changed from ribbed to glued clinker boats but has been apt ever since.

Orginally the qualifying limit was 10 years old, but the qualification has been changed over the years, at times becoming somewhat complex eg. in 1993, the qualifying rule was any boat registered before 1986, but excluding the Baggy Trousers or Crusader design.  This lasted until 1999....

By 2000 it was clear that there had been a quick revolution with the latest generation of double bottomed boats, and the Burton Week Committee, keen to keep older boats attending Burton Week, modified the rule again.  The qualifying rule, which is repeated in the 2006 yearbook (page 9) was that the buoyancy arrangements were consistent with the pre 1996 rules.  This was a very clear distinction and throughout the land prizes at meetings not just Burton Week started being awarded to "Admirals Cup" boats, the clear distintion being double bottomed or not double bottomed.

It is clear that now some boats are being retrofitted (or being considered for retrofit) now as single bottomed boats and allowing these to compete in the Burton Week Admirals Cup division would seem to be contrary to the basis that the trophy was originally presented.  My view is that Admirals Cup boats are foremost by definition old boats, and only old boats should be eligible for such prizes.  Older boats tend to be heavier and not as stiff.

We are looking at the Burton Week Notice of Race for 2007 in the next few weeks and this is an issue which will be considered (as it is each year) in the drafting of such.  I think that the current wording probably does not pay sufficient specific attention to the original intention of the donor.  Don't be surprised if it is tweaked a little!

John

[Paul Turner N2487/3500 (Guest)]

Thanks guys!

From what I hear, the committee meeting at the weekend were moving quickly towards a formal definition of an AC boat which will probably (and quite rightly) include a time limit (ie point in time) definition of old/AC boats. I (well Mike Cooke) am/is going to modify CD anyway but I now have a clearer view as to what to do.

Ken tells me that there is a "point in time" definition of 4 plankers as well - I think it's up to N3160. And vintage = clinker.

So, when we have the committee's AC definition we will all be totally clear as to what is what.....

until someone suggests a weight reduction?!?!?