What about a vintage 12?

[Antony (Guest)]

My own view would be to keep this simple. 
Your son will enjoy racing other boats at the club, and so the obvious thing to do is to buy something not too different from what the other local 12 sailors have.  If you can find and afford one then a D8 is the obvious solution as they are the best built 12 of that era and totally plastic so you can look after your other wooden boats.  Failing that a wooden Crusader is cheaper and as near as matters for club racing the same shape.  On the river you could go for something a little older, probably as far back as a good Cheshire Cat and still not be at any material disadvantage to the D8 sailors. If you go back much older then the boats are heavier and in most condition you will be starting with a disadvantage.
If you find a boat on the market and want an opinion on the shape let us know, as you have probably noticed there is no lack of free advice here even if some of it does conflict!
Antony
N3348

[Ian Stables]

At Spinnaker we use 1092, 1104 & 1145 for DB, AC & Vintage respectively. It seems to work well, different boats do well in different conditions, but in the final analysis it is largely down to the crew.  Either way, with double bottomed, admirals cup or vintage you are joining a class that youngsters will enjoy, especially if you have a good crowd of youngsters amongst the 12's already and before too long will be leaving you ashore!

P.S. Sound advice Antony, who says we 12 sailors never agree on anything!

[Overomtimistix]

Thanks Ian. The numbers are very usefull. Currently all 12s use 1092 and there is no distinction on age. The lag for 1104 is about 30 seconds in an hour but for 1145 it is 2 1/2 minutes

As my main reason for looking into 12s is to be able to enjoy class racing with my son I shall keep looking, although I think that some of the vintage designs are rather pretty.

Looking through the Desborough boat list the designs regularly sailed are Pipedream, Design8, Tigress and Crusader. There are also Paper Dart, MicroClipper and Cheshire Cat that are less often used. There is one Holt clinker design.
The sailing conditions are generally light winds.
I'm looking for a boat that is suitable for a light weight crews - although I suspect that this is not the over rifing consideration given the usual wind. Something fairly stable as I hope my wife and son will both enjoy sailing her. It would also be nice to have a boat that can be used for cruising on occasions.

[Chadders]

Lots of advice above so just a few comments to add:-
[face=Times New Roman]If you want to spend 2-£300 and want plastic then a Paperdart is fine and I paid £50.00 for mine although without a mast.  Performance wise they are similar to a China Doll and great inland or on a river, not too many around though and some had wooden decks so it’s best to check if you follow up any adverts.  [/face]
Design 8 is a great boat, reasonably forgiving and will carry up to circa 23 stone they are almost indestructible and mostly plastic, the thwart and plate case top is teak and the bulkhead is ply.  The price range is circa 12-£1800 depending on condition and what comes with it etc.  D8’s hold price very well indeed and may sell for more money when you trade up or move on.  A Crusader is very similar in design, usually wood though but similar performance for £5-£900
Vintage :- great but its back to high maintenance again although I think they are worth it.
[face=Times New Roman]All the major designs are described under “About” on the web page including the good and bad points, whatever you go for try and avoid very tired sails as a new set will set you back 7-£800 and stick to the recognised designs for resale value.  [/face]
It sounds as though the handicap system is not of interest, it does however help a little and unlike Ken I think it is better than nothing but as performance for each design varies with wind, sailing conditions, state of the rig and sails and crew weight not to mention ability no handicap  system can ever be 100% fair.  My Paperdart, Starfish and Design 8 have all won races this year on straight time although N2 does struggle a bit.  Howard C aka Chadders N2, 2266, 2769 and 3356

[Overomtimistix]

Chadders, that raises another issue - what is the cost and availablilty of masts, sails etc. I've seen a couple of boats for sailing missing some or all of these. It really destroys the economics buying a boat for peanuts and then having to buy lots of other bits.

[Chadders]

I agree completely I was lucky I got a mast for a bottle of whisky but I have a spare one anyway although our Chairman is using it on one of his boats currently (hint Tim). 
Several people have upgraded to carbon and it is occasionally possible to  pick up an aluminium mast for not a lot of money and older boats do sometimes get scrapped off due to rot or serious damage etc and the bits then come up for sale via the web page,  I have seen several bits donated to worthy causes for free.  The class hotshots often replace sails fairly frequently too so used suits do come up although you need to make sure they have been cut for a similar mast to the one you have and hotshots will almost certainly be using carbon these days.  I would go for a complete boat if possible with reasonable sails and just get on and sail it.  If you are not in a rush you could go really cheap buy a part boat and advertise for the bits you need to get going but why bother with such a good selection of used boats around.  If you dont mind a risk try a search on ebay current bargain is in Scotland and ends in 3 hours time!  

[MikeDay]

I know the fleet at Desborough well.  If you buy any well-known design Twelve from a Cheshire Cat to a Design 8 (including Tiger, Tigress, Pipedream and Crusader), you will be competing on a broadly like-for-like basis with the current fleet and special PY numbers won't be relevant.  The river's tight and fiddly there and you'll be competitive with a light crew in any of those shapes - depending of course on your own ability.  You won't have to spend any extra money especially updating one of those shapes - for example, I don't think anyone at Desborough has a carbon mast.  I'm sure the fleet there will be only too happy to give you a trial sail and to welcome you if you decide to get a boat.  Just one word of catution - Twelves may look simple but it takes time to learn how to make them go quickly - but it's a very rewarding experience.
 
Mike D
N352?
 
 

[Jane Wade]

I see 3398 is up for sale - that would be a great boat for you. Don't suppose it will be up for sale for long.

[Overomtimistix]

I think that my budget (£500) will probably restrict me to a wooden or older plastic boat.
I'll keep my eye out over the winter but at the moment they all seem to be vintage designs

[Roly Mo]

I have owned a number of 12's, including Cheshire Cat, Crusader 88 and Final Chapter 'single bottoms' and now own a DB Final Chapter and a vintage 'Sparklet'.  I sail the Sparklet with my 8 year old daughter on a 70 acre inland lake and we also venture off to other venues, including rivers (but not the salty stuff yet!).  We also own a Mirror.
I have my best sailing with Ellie in the Sparklet.  I find the Mirror horribly cramped for the two of us and if she wants to helm I simply can't manage to bend enough around the kicker to make it comfortable.  We've sailed in some quite windy conditions in the 12 and we've also competed in really light stuff - and enjoyed ourselves equally.  I was very lucky with the boat I bought, it was one I'd admired for some time and eventually it came up for sale at just the right time.  The Vintage circuit is great fun and ideal for bringing children into racing, the racing is certainly competitive but it's very friendly too.
In 2010 we have a number of Mirror events which Ellie wants to go to, will actively compete on the Vintage circuit and I'll bring Roly Mo out to play for a number of carefully selected sea and larger lake meetings where I can get a crew.
I guess the message in all of this rambling is that I'm really enjoying Vintage sailing with my young daughter - give it a go!
RM
PS  We are hoping to get to sail off the PN's at Ripon next year, which would be great!

[Overomtimistix]

I don't think that I will be doing much on the circuit for the while, just enjoying club racing with wife and sons.
I've been told that I can't have more than three.
I'm investigating a Mark 10 in Scotland at the moment that seems to be quite cheap - transport may be the killer in the end. Also the risk of buying an old wooden boat unseen.

I like the look of the vintage boats, but they may not suit my oldest sons competetive nature.