Carbon Mast

[JohnMurrell]

James,

yes still a measurer!

John

[John Meadowcroft]

[quote by=rick_perkins link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool1,m=1169037072,s=11 date=1169145955]

Would it not be better to include them in the weight to stop people spending excessive cash on these light weight items?

It would also be easier to have an all-up sailing weight rather than some items in and some out ... that way you could have a nice simple rule....

Rick

[/quote]

Rick

The issue at heart is enforcement of the weight limit.

Masts are easy to include in all up weight as we all tend to use the same one each time we go sailing.  Your certificate dictates the minimum mast weight that you can use.  Centreboards also follow the same principle.  Rudders are often interchanged and are outside the weight limit - Quite rightly in my view.

There is a good argument that booms are like masts and centreboards.  I think booms should be included in the all up weight next time we have a weight reduction.  If the weight limit was changed but the boom was included, those already with carbon booms would take lead out.  Those who were on weight but had an alloy boom could get to the weight by going carbon.  This is the same principle as how masts got in the all up weight.  An alternative option which could be popular would be to reduce the all up weight by reducing the minimum mast weight.  The counterview is that at 5.5kg this helps control a potential arms race.

The effect would be that if everyone has a carbon boom already those with correctors do better - hard luck on those without lead.  Not sure if this is entirely a vote winner, but the key argument is does the Class want to reduce weight or not?  If it does the second bird (of including the boom in the all up weight) or third bird (of reducing mimimum mast weight) could be killed with the same stone.

john

[rick perkins (Guest)]

[John Meadowcroft]

Rick,

whatever weight you may choose, it will mean that someone puts lead in their boat.  I dont want to put lead in my boat, it has too much in it already.  Any debate about weight has to be about reduction.  There is stuff that is weighed and there is stuff that is not.  In this regard, life is not equal.  Katy and I weigh more than 21 stone, even when i have dieted.  Is sailing with 18 stone unfair?  I say no, bring it on.

If we wanted to change the all up weight we should not slow anyone down.

Twenty years ago the 'measured weight' of a 12 was 87.5kg.  We are now at 78kg on a comparable basis.  The hull design that I sail is 21 years old in 2007.  My hull was built in 2002. It has more than 10kg of lead.

I would never vote for a real increase in the sailing weight of my boat.  Weight changes are a real pain in the butt too and should generally be avoided.  ie when we change the weight it should be substantial, well signalled and well thought through.  It is sadly probably difficult to achieve all three at the same time!

john

[angus]

How is it we all ways get around to such a weighty issue as weight. Can we not just do away with the minimum weight all together and save a lot of arguement in the future cause sombody is allways going to complain. as far as rudders and booms are concerned speaking as somebody who is probably allways going to be sailing an over weight boat carbon is an easy way if not a cheap way of reducing weight so I plan to make my own once I have a sailable boat to put them on. But to my mind the best way to keep weight down (measured or none measured) is to not feed your kids and teach em to bail (if you sail an AC)
Wall papers maily on the wall by the way, nothing to do with me!!
 

[rick perkins]

I wan't suggesting increasing weight either ... just making the rule easier to understand for us newbies ....

[Barry]

I'm not sure I understand this carbon stuff.

Carbon masts seem to be light, bendy, cool, a bit brittle and expensive. Other than the weight (which is then corrected with lead!) is it that they can depower earlier and easier and are more responsive to gusts?

For us - ahem - of a slightly larger frame what benefit do they give over a tin mast? (Do any DB's use tin masts?)
With my rapidly growing son crewing we seem to be always looking for power in the N12 - with my "other crew" crewing an outboard motor would be an advantage - so a stiff mast is (I think) what we want.

I seem to recall in the Lark fleet that there were calls for optional stiffer section than the 'C' (as I have in my Lark and N12) to help us lardies. In any real breeze my Lark mast (on which I use considerably more tension than the N12) can seem at times like a piece of wet spaghetti to control.  

Barry
N3364 (carbon free - ish)

[terry cooke (Guest)]

[matt (Guest)]

just before we loose track of the orignal post - can I suggest the Jon_P considers just purchasing the carbon boom if money is tight. Kevin Bloor of Alverbanks sails told me that the best upgrade you can make to a national12 is a carbon boom. He's right too. Its nothing to do with the all up weight of the boat - its because you can get twist in the mainsail in the lightest of conditions. this will make you rocket fast. That has an instant imapct on your racing results - whereas a carbon mast seems to take an age to get used to.

Matt
N2486

[Jon_P]

Thanks for the comment Matt,  great answer had not thought of it like that.
I am kind of used to the Carbon rig though from other boats.

I will have a look through the piggy bank and see what we can stratch too.
If the boom is the option.  Should I just be hunting for weight?  How easy or dificult is the home build?
manufacturers?

Sorry about all the questions.

Jon

[Matt (Guest)]

jon,
Weight is the promary factor in getting the twist you need in light airs. I bought a superspars and that is fine. Infact there is much less variability in booms than in masts s you should be okay with any manufacturers offering.

I wouldn't recommend home building tubes. It can be done but aligning the fibres and consolidating laminate is challenging. Carbon is getting quite expensive at the moment - presumably due to wind turbine construction - so if you get it wrong once you will end up spending more than a new of the shelf boom would cost. Added to that carbon and epoxy shinks whne its drying so its notoriously difficult to get the boom off the mould.

having said that a few people have been successful so don't let me put you off if you are determined.

Matt
N3486 (Actually)  

[Jon_P]

[tedcordall]

See this link. http://www.uk-cherub.org/
Look in news. The cherubists are having a 'sticky weekend' where you can build a boom with help and advice. Probably a better bet than doing it on your own.

[matt (Guest)]

[Mikey C]