National 12 Class Rules

[Jimbo41]

I know this is debating is really getting people worked up and I don't want to make it worse.  But I am a heavy weight, 14 stone. I have sailed 12s on and off since a child and having sailed moths and lasers still come back to them.  I have just got another boat and will race it singlehanded until my 4 year old is old enough to come out with me, next year maybe?  Until then I will race it by myself.  At 14 stone the boat absoultely flys and with enough mast bend and grim determination I can sail up to F5, just.  Last weekend I was beating Lasers, Laser 2000s and RS200s and the like on the water, it was great! 
I know the class has a strong history and it is a history of slow development.  It is not the Cherub class!!  If you want to be like them then there is an easy answer, go and get one... they are a very nice bunch.  And I probably will when the kids are a bit older.
In the meantime why not allow singlehanders to attend Burton week.  I know this heresy but look at this way, you may get more people sailing, more people going quick, it can be a seperate competition, no boats get devalued, nobody looses money, no rule changes, just more 12s sailing. 
Whatever happens I will still be out there by myself and I know that if its just me I will never be over weight.  It sure beats sailing a laser!!!!!
Giles
3393

Giles, I think that is a suggestion worthy of consideration. My wife would also feel relieved not to feel compelled to crew when my lightweight daughter is otherwise occupied in her Optimist. The day before our club championships we took Passion Pudding out to practice in a Force 4 and as a result of our lack of experience together and her nerves, we "kissed the water 4 times". It was cold, even in a dry suit. Since then she has not wanted to set foot in the boat. Can't blame her, but there it is. My daughter is absolutely keen, however.
I still think, that minor rule liberalisation medium term would result in the expansion of the class niche and this would be a reasonable way to go.
Jim N3470 and T1293.
 

[Martin]

So what de we know about 3519 in terms of pushing the envelope (See Dare's post below)?

[Cat out of bag (Guest)]

We know that it’s going to make those who claim that no new development is possible within the current rules look more stupid than they normally do.

[philipcosson]

The IC has just been through a process of VOTING on their rules.

[Jimbo41]

We know that it’s going to make those who claim that no new development is possible within the current rules look more stupid than they normally do.

Who has claimed that? It is not a question of looking stupid. I think it's more a question of concern over the medium/long-term future of the class.
Jim.

[Kevin]

The IC has just been through a process of VOTING on their rules.

And the point of this comment is??
Any class member can put a proposal together for consideration at the AGM. None has been received for our AGM
Kevin

[philipcosson]

I get the feeling the IC vote had a much bigger franchise, that's all; and the outcome was a compromise!
Anyway, i'm sick of this as well, I don't have a particularly strong view either way about rule changes. I just tried to facilitate the discussion of rules outside this forum.
Thats my last word on the subject; and I suggest the forum get back to less enthusiasm sapping conversations!

[JimC (Guest)]

Class Rules/Arbitary... I can speak as someone who's had a bit to do with Cherub rules in the past, and the new IC development rule more recently and also tried fraing a development rule set from scratch.
Yep, of course your rules are arbitary. Everyone's rules are arbitary... They're just a framework around which the class members agree to design and build boats. At any given time some rules actively restrict the shape of the boat and even typeform it, others may have no effect at all... Which rules are restricting at any given time can and does vary...
Writing rules is suprisingly difficult. Writing rules which don't typeform yet keep the boats within the basic style you desire without creating loopholes is damn near impossible. On that subject that's why boats built to hit every single limit in the rule and bend it as hard as possible are rarely successful: they're making the assumption that the folk who formulated the rules over the years knew far more about the future of sailboat design as could ever have been possible!
Rise of floor rules are especially problematic - the IC one had I think 3 or 4 people kicking ideas about for many emails before something half decent came out...
I reckon we've got the best current set with the IC, but we had the "advantage" that we'd deliberately chosen to outdate every current boat in the fleet without a spinnaker and return from one design hull to box rule. The old boats can be spinnaker converted, so there's a role for them and new boats without kites were not being built. Needless to say this was a very unusual situation and its certainly not your position. We had a very obvious problem so the big change was a fairly easy decision (and still only just went through). Whether it was right or not - well actually, no-one ever get to know what *would* have happened...
 

[rick perkins]

Class Rules/Arbitary... I can speak as someone who's had a bit to do with Cherub rules in the past, and the new IC development rule more recently and also tried fraing a development rule set from scratch.
Yep, of course your rules are arbitary. Everyone's rules are arbitary... They're just a framework around which the class members agree to design and build boats. At any given time some rules actively restrict the shape of the boat and even typeform it, others may have no effect at all... Which rules are restricting at any given time can and does vary...
Writing rules is suprisingly difficult. Writing rules which don't typeform yet keep the boats within the basic style you desire without creating loopholes is damn near impossible. On that subject that's why boats built to hit every single limit in the rule and bend it as hard as possible are rarely successful: they're making the assumption that the folk who formulated the rules over the years knew far more about the future of sailboat design as could ever have been possible!
Rise of floor rules are especially problematic - the IC one had I think 3 or 4 people kicking ideas about for many emails before something half decent came out...
I reckon we've got the best current set with the IC, but we had the "advantage" that we'd deliberately chosen to outdate every current boat in the fleet without a spinnaker and return from one design hull to box rule. The old boats can be spinnaker converted, so there's a role for them and new boats without kites were not being built. Needless to say this was a very unusual situation and its certainly not your position. We had a very obvious problem so the big change was a fairly easy decision (and still only just went through). Whether it was right or not - well actually, no-one ever get to know what *would* have happened...
 

Jim,
Would you say the ICs fundementally changed the rules in an attempt to revive the flagging class or were there other motivations?

[jimc (Guest)]

Would you say the ICs fundementally changed the rules in an attempt to revive the flagging class or were there other motivations?

Two things. One was not enough spinaketr free boats being built and the other was to make a big difference in downwind performance for the spinnaker free boats as spinnakers have not proved to be internationally popular. 

[janeysailor12]

In the meantime why not allow singlehanders to attend Burton week.  Giles
3393

 
No NO NOOOOOOO the National 12 is a double hander and should stay that way.  If you want to get a single hander that's not a Laser invest in a Solo.  Mike and I are 21 stone all up and sail a 15 year old Crusader and very few in our club can touch us!  We are constantly practicing and striving to make the boat go as fast as we can WITHIN class rules.  We have sailed big opens as well, such as Bala where we've won  meetings, The Anglesy offshore where our best result was 4th (up against RS 400, RS 200 numerous GP's several Merlins and the odd 49er) Rock Camel regatta where we won the Rock Trophy( I won;t beging to list the boats we were up against there!)  As mentioned before there are ways and means (IF you have the experience) of making a National 12 go damn fast, we should concentrate on that and not turning them into single handers.  Most of the old (sorry) National 12 sailors can make their boats move by tweaking and practice and experience.
Just my two pennith
Janey x

[Giles (Guest)]

Janey - I understand your point, I don't want to offend anyone and I don't expect the class to change.  However opening the class up to single handers could increase the popularity without changing the boats and I don't see how the double handed boats would loose out.  A singlehanded 12 is a much better boat than a laser, solo or phantom, in my opinion - but if the ideal weight is 18 stone it will remain 18 stone even for the singlehander. 
Anyway I will keep on enjoying going out by myself, one day I might perfect a singlehanded roll tack?  or fit a self tacking jib, or find a crew who is under 6 stone?
Giles

[Tasarteaser (Guest)]

Janey - I understand your point, I don't want to offend anyone and I don't expect the class to change.  However opening the class up to single handers could increase the popularity without changing the boats and I don't see how the double handed boats would loose out.  A singlehanded 12 is a much better boat than a laser, solo or phantom, in my opinion - but if the ideal weight is 18 stone it will remain 18 stone even for the singlehander. 
Anyway I will keep on enjoying going out by myself, one day I might perfect a singlehanded roll tack?  or fit a self tacking jib, or find a crew who is under 6 stone?
Giles

I agree.  But forget the self-tacking jib Giles. That´s not a 12. I was out on the water soloing again, this time in a force 5 gusting 6, and it didn´t bother me one bit. The trick is to keep your head whilst tacking. Even gybing works. The feeling of planing upwind whilst leaning out on the last 1/4 of the boat even with the centreboard fully down(!) is just something else!!  In all fairness, we´ve only heard lighter crews say that they don´t want to change the rules. Sorry Meds, but you ain´t heavy! 
Cheers! 
Jim. N3470, 3130 and T1293

[rick perkins]

Two things. One was not enough spinaketr free boats being built and the other was to make a big difference in downwind performance for the spinnaker free boats as spinnakers have not proved to be internationally popular. 

The whole AC thing is a bit of a UK only issue as far as I can see so from an IC class view this is a very dramatic change to try and create a new phase of building and performance. Good on them for doing somthing ...