Advice Please About Buying A N12

[newbee]

I am after some advice please.
My 9 year old son wants to start crewing and I was considering a National 12 for mixed handicap racing on our local estuary.  We have a mixed fleet:- lasers, solos, wayfarers, toppers (and others).  We sail on an estuary results in relatively flat water with lots of beating and runs, with limited reaching. 
How competitive are N12s on PY? - I have seen a local rough diamond for sale @ £600, (which seems good value) but not sure about is PY?.Would our type of course be suited to N12? and as far as weight goes @ 18st, would we be OK for 2-3 years.
Any comments would be gratefully received - you guys certainly have a fantastic website.
Garth
(PS my other pastime is a Projection 762.  like a big dinghy with up to 16 knots offwind in a good blow)  

[Tim L (Guest)]

Hi Garth,

a 12 would be ideal for situation (but you knew I was going to say that...).  But seriously a 12 would be ideal for your needs.  Where is it that you sail?

Crew weight wise you're great at 18st, but you should stay competitive through to 23st at least, which will probably get you more than 3 years of use.
PY-wise the 12 is excellent especially on upwind/downwind courses.  If the beats are against the tide then a well sailed 12 is pretty unbeatable.  If anything it's courses with lots of reaching that 12s struggle against kite boats and singlehanders.  I used to sail at an estuary club with a similar range of classes and we used to be at the front most of the time.

Design wise - the Crusader is probably the best all round design in that price range and pretty forgiving.  The Rough Diamond is excellent in light airs but maybe a bit tippier.  Probably the best buy if you have a little more cash is the Freak Out (3404) as you'll get a plastic hull into the bargain and a similar shape to the Crusader.

Cheers

Tim L

[newbee]

Thanks for your advice Tim.
We sail on the Helford River in Cornwall, which does have quite a strong tide and generally need to beat back upstream against a southwesterly.  Pleased to hear that our weight etc is about right.
I note your comments about the Crusader as a good all rounder.  However, as far as the Rough Diamond is concerned are you able to explain why they are a bit tippier, please.
Any further advice from other 12 sailors would also be welcomed. 
Thanks again.
Garth

[Tim L (Guest)]

When getting into 12 sailing 9 years(!) ago we tried a Rough Diamond and a Crusader. I think the rough diamond has higher freeboard and is narrower at deck level so it can tip quite a long way before the hull touches down.  It's also (possibly) narrower on thye waterline which gives it more speed in light airs.

I think it depends on your dinghy experience up to now - if you're pretty confident already then the RD may suit especially for somewhere quite sheltered like Helford. If you're likely to be stumbling around a bit at first then the crusader may be a bit easier.

[newbee]

Thanks Tim.
I have done a reasonable amount of dinghy racing (6 years in a laser but also wayfarers, albacores & sport 14) and even had a moth for a while in my late teens!  I'm certainly a bit slower now and my son is a relative novice, so will have a look at both Crusader & RD if we can.  '3247 Rascal' is for sale in Devon, which isn't too far away.
Final question if I may.  Following a capsize, I guess 12's come up with quite a lot of water in them or are they relatively dry like a Bosun we used to instruct in.  I know boats like wayfarer and sport 14 are a real pain getting water out.  Just thining 3-4 years ahead when my son might helm and daughter crew.
Thanks again.
Garth

[MikeDay]

Single bottom Twelves are easy to handle after a capsize.  They float on their sides with the plate and mast on the top of the water and come up with water inside, which makes them pretty stable.  With flaps open, bear away on to a reach and the boat'll be dry in 20 seconds.  Now, double bottom boats are more of a handful but that won't be your problem with a Crusader or Rough Diamond.  There's nothing wrong with the latter, but the Crusader is the best design of its generation and you won't go wrong with one.
 
Mike D
N3496

[angus]

I started sailing 12s with my son when he was about 7, we stepped up from a mirror, after a couple of times out in our china doll he never wanted to go back to the mirror even if the jib sheet did tend to pull him into the bottom of the boat. We had problems with thedoll being very easily overpowered we had an all up weight of about 14 stone (multiply by 7 then 1.1 for kg hink I go it right this time))last year we got a crusader and find that much easier to handle once we got used to it and can usually get it going again after a capsize providing I have remembered to blow up the boyancy bags. By the way we are now up to 16 stone:)
We are are resonably competative at handicap club racing but when we travell to 12 open meetings we are deffinately at the back of the fleet.
Cann't  commment on rough Diamond but can certainly recommend a crusader

[philipcosson]

Hey Angus, i'm not letting you get it all your own way this season - that rear spot is definitely mine!

Moved from a Baggy T to a Crusader last year - only one sail so far, but i'm sure it will be more my daughters cup of tea (son has graduated to laser - 6'2" and 10 stone).
Phil

[newbee]

Thanks for your comments Angus.
It really nice how everyone so willingly gives advice.  I am hoping to look at the Rough Diamond at the weekend.  From what I have heard it should be a solid starter boat from which to graduate into something more exotic should my son get the bug.  The odd open meeting at Salcombe would be fun and I could probably keep Phil company.
Garth

 
 

[newbee]

After all the graterful advice I can now report that I have just had my offer accepted for N3247 Rascal (Crusader), so I am really looking forward to joining the clan.
I picked up from some earlier threads that older boats have different PY handicaps.  Does anyone know what 3247 should be, so that I can inform the Sailing Committee.
 

[Richard]

Hi if you have the "Year Book" the recommended handicaps by the association. Quote for boat numbers 3141-3271 a PY of 1115.
Hope this helps.
Richard
N2399:)

[Steve (Guest)]

Garth,
Getting the sailing committee to accept the Class association recommended handicaps for older boats is not always that easy. At Hykeham we have a five 12s all except one are built to the latest rules and the one that is older is a Crusader and about the same age and sail number as your boat. The NTOA recommendation for that boat would be 1115. However, this would make it virtually on par with an Enterprise (1116) and there are quite a few people in the club who remember when 12s and Enterprises were on the same PY handicap and recall that it was probably longer ago than the early Crusader and Baggy trousers designs when the speed advantage of the 12 was recognised in the handicapping system. It would be useful to know if anyone has a documented history of the 12 Handicap to make a comparison with the Enterprise for example. There may have even been a time when the PY of the Enterprise was lower than the 12, but that’s probably well before my time.
At the moment I have persuaded the club to accept a modified handicapping system that puts the 1970 to 1980 vintage of 12 on a par with the Enterprise the others are adjusted accordingly to pro-rata the differential to the current design. The older designs will only get 62% of the recommended differential to the latest designs.
I believe a lot of clubs do accept the reccommended handicaps unmodified so have a go.
Regards,
Steve
N3436

[martin 1262]

Hi,
 
When I sailed 12s in 79-82, the handicap for both N12 and Ents was 118, and that was when sail numbers were before the Crusader era. Seem to recall new sail numbers then were 3000-3100 ish.
 
Think Steve is not too far off the mark
 
 

[Tim L (Guest)]

I've always sailed Cheshire Cats, Crusaders and Design 8s off the modern handicap and never found it a particular problem.  Unless the Helford fleet is of an amazingly high standard I'd stick with that first or you may wear out your welcome rather quickly!!
Tina certainly used to sail Rascal very successfully at Starcross off 1098/1093.

[johnk]

YR2/80 - The RYA Portsmouth Yardstick Scheme has
NAT 12 118
Enterprise 118
I have the book in front of me - it escaped a clear out!
My (possibly senile) memory says that in the 1960s National 12s and Enterprises sailed off the same Yardstick.