Events - the case for a cull

[STU W]

With attitudes like that Tim Im actually glad Ive sold my 12 until the kids get bigger. Not everybody wants to compete in huge fleets on big waters, some enjoy more sociable sailing at smaller venues and can sail better there as its what they are used to. Having all these big popular events is great for those who can afford it and have no commitments to other people or hobbies/interests. Are these events run so that people can win in big fleets or run to let people enjoy their sailing wherever they want to go. How many past champs has TVSC produced and this is one of those horrid inland rivers you talk about. Many people have grown up on such stretches of water and without their enthusiasm where would the fleet be, Up River, Earlswood, Nottingham etc all produced champ winning helms..........
Do not support such places at your peril.
EX 3317

[Tim L (Guest)]

Yeah, goddam those popular events Stu, we should have more 5 boat river events...

In that typical 12 class way any challenge to the status quo is refuted by invoking the past.  Why should it matter that TVSC or any other inland club produced national champions in the past?  Most of the clubs listed in the handbook have no 12s now and what is the average age of the few helms at TVSC?  40? 50?  None of these places are very likely to produce anything but the occasional 12 sailor again. And who'll leave after a couple of years as most seem to at present. 


The Gill series is one ray of light in an otherwise pretty rapid decline.  And indicates that people will make an effort to come an event if they're sure of the turnout and social.  Wanting big fleets has nothing to do with winning and everything to do with decent socials - ultimately thats the big draw for most of us and  having a bit more competition at all levels on the water is a bonus.


Irrespective of what I write here, just going back to the first post and looking at those numbers again should start alarm bells ringing.

Kevin, I'd never do as good a job as you as I'm no way as organised...  My best way of contributing is trying to build up the club fleet again to get some new people into the class.  However I'm not holding out much hope the way things look at the moment - think I may well end up going to the Merlins or Larks as most of the younger 12 people already have within a season or two.  Hence my £200 12

[Chadders]

[face=Calibri]Further up Tim you said you could not understand why I quoted Frampton as an argument for one day events.  Simple!!  It meant I could go, sail one day and qualify, had I needed to sail both days to qualify then I would not have been able to go at all!  [/face]
[face=Calibri]You are supporting the large open waters which have a big part to play no doubt but personally I don’t especially like the lumpy stuff and prefer the smaller waters that the 12 is also ideal for.  The problem with rotating venues is likely to be getting back in after missing a year and Bernard is quite right in that in the North at least, getting two days is a problem at the clubs.  Saturdays are becoming easier than Sundays because it doesn’t disrupt the club sailing, and most of our two day events are now one day and work well.  [/face]
I agree that we could perhaps reduce the overall number of events but let’s not try and squeeze out all the inland and river venues.  I note your concern that the average age of 12 helms may be 40-50 at TVSC, I now have my bus pass and am delighted to still be sailing 12’s albeit rather slowly.  Perhaps Paul Turner should work out the actual average age of TVSC or for that matter Northern Circuit sailors, I think you may be surprised how ancient some of us are!  On the plus side I can use my fuel allowance to pay for fuel to go to open meetings and this year if I make all the open days I have planned to attend (including some 2 day events) it totals 21 days, I am not currently planning to do Burton Week and I won’t qualify for the Gill Series but I will qualify in the Northern and Vintage circuits so I am happy that I am doing my bit and enjoying it.  Environmentally having a good, mixed venue open series in my local area means I can compete against some good people, sail on a range of waters fairly regularly without having to travel long distances and sail on my local puddle at Yeadon in between.  I look forward to seeing you all at Hykeham and seeing how this thread develops as it has certainly captured a few opinions which must be a good thing.
By all means tweak and improve the programme after all we are a development class but from my perspective it aint broke so don’t try to do a major fix.
Howard C N2, N2266 and N3356

[mutt]

going back to your original point Tim I have a feeling that you have missinterpreted the importance of the quality of the events on the nationals turnout. If you did this analysis for the national 12's over the last 10 years I think you might find that the step decline in the turnout for nationals correlates (inversely) closely with the turnout for gill series events. The interpretation being that what people want is big fleet racing (where big these days is 20 boats). In the past this was provided by the nationals and norfolk week. Now however the class has a thriving alternative by way of the gill series so competative sailors do not have to go to the trouble, expense and pure physical effort of a week sailing long races out at sea.  
If you look at it that way you'd conclude quite the opposite - cull the gill series if you want a healthy nationals turnout. Further the smaller and one day events are entirely irrelevant to gill and nationals turnout as they cater for a completely different sort of National12 sailor. i.e  the type who don't have a competative boat and don't sail to win - rather the enjoyment of fleet sailing and a good position against their neighbours. There are a vast number of that type of sailor in the N12 fleet and to deprive them of local open meetings will only disengage those sailors.
I'm not suggesting that either course of action is right. Rather be a bit more positive about the health of the class. A high number of events is a sign of a thriving class, a core of well attended competative events provides a focus for the elite and a large number of locally fed smaller events proves that the 'rump' of the class is catered for and is engaged.
Matt
N3486
 

[Roly Mo]

I think you'd find that a lot of those who do the local open meetings do enjoy the competition - it's just a different sort of competition.  I really enjoy the racing on the Northern and Scottish circuits and am in the fortunate position of being able to choose which boat to sail to suit the venue and the crew situation.  We will be bringing the Vintage boat to Hykeham, because I want to sail with Ellie and also because I know I will have some excellent racing against my fellow Vintagers.  This weekend I'm having some fantastic racing in Roly, with a first class borrowed crew.  Ten years ago I'd never have thought that I'd be enjoying racing a Mirror and teaching my daughter to crew - times move on!  As has been said, people sail 12's for all sorts of reasons and the key thing is to keep them sailing.
Now going off to resume battle with Homer
RM
PS  Annandale laid on the most wonderful social last night!

[ken goddard]

This is the biggest discussion topic for a while and important it is too. Trent Valley S.C. has received a lot of mention and in response to Stu W, and his description of our water as a "horrid little river", I thought that I should add some facts. Club members Dick Wyche in 1938, Mike Nokes in 1960, John Royce in 1976 won the Burton Cup, as did former club members Robert Peebles in 1995 and Graham Camm (many times!) after they had left the area. We have managed to keep a fleet going continuously since 1937, although it has been a struggle at times. There are 9 boats in the dinghy park now and we are desparately keen for friends to come and sail at our three Open Meetings this year (described by Paul Turner in another Discussion Group message), to keep the heritage going. The river is both an attractive and tricky place to sail and Mr W would learn something if he were to get another boat and sail here.   
Ken Goddard, N.2300

[greight expectations]

I have only sailed once at Trent (at a 2 day Gill event (for the benefit of my leaned friend mr laws)).  I did rather enjoy it, having some similarity with sailing at salcombe.  That is hardly a horrid little river and neither in my view is the trent at TVSC.
I do agree with Tim in regard to perhaps reviewing the number of opens, especially regionally,  surely we can agree  a rotation amongst a regions clubs.  there will be some clubs that will not wish to join in,  their loss not ours. My club hosted the Inlands 2 year ago and yet some members are still moaning about it.  lets take fewer opens to venues where we are welcomed and,  crucially, we get more support from our own members.  This is what happens with the Gill events Grafham and bristol seem to be the "pemanent" events with the others ciculating,
I also sympathise with the view expressed by Bernard that it is easier for those of us without permanent crew to do one day events.
But surely the problems alluded to in this thread are the same for all dinghy classes
Roger

[angus]

I can only manage to sail about once a month on average so we rarely sail at our home club and as we generally have to travel a long way we much prefer weekend meets, but I think it is important to to have a mix of both venue and one two day events to keep everybody happy. One possibilty perhaps is to have more events like Yeadon Ripon where there is a seperate event on each day of the weekend. We would love to come to more Gill events but they are too southern based. Yes I do think there are too many events but I am not so sure of the answer.
Just spent a brilliant weekend at annandale where I got speaking to some young gp14 sailers, I asked them why they were ailing gps rather than 12s when one of them described a gp as a breeze block the answer was for good racing and they certainly had that

[STU W]

This is the biggest discussion topic for a while and important it is too. Trent Valley S.C. has received a lot of mention and in response to Stu W, and his description of our water as a "horrid little river", I thought that I should add some facts. Club members Dick Wyche in 1938, Mike Nokes in 1960, John Royce in 1976 won the Burton Cup, as did former club members Robert Peebles in 1995 and Graham Camm (many times!) after they had left the area. We have managed to keep a fleet going continuously since 1937, although it has been a struggle at times. There are 9 boats in the dinghy park now and we are desparately keen for friends to come and sail at our three Open Meetings this year (described by Paul Turner in another Discussion Group message), to keep the heritage going. The river is both an attractive and tricky place to sail and Mr W would learn something if he were to get another boat and sail here.   
Ken Goddard, N.2300

Ken I was Actually quoting Tim and being somewhat ironic, if you read my post you will infact realise I was defending the role of clubs like TVSC rather than decrying them as some others are. I sailed for many years in the midlands and enjoyed sailing on rivers and small puddles and fully agree that many helms would learn greatly from the experience which is why these smaller venues produce so many champs especially when compared to the no of sailers they have as members. Long live the smaller venues and long may they continue to serve the class........... 

[Tim L (Guest)]

Matt,
your theory about he Gill series and the nationals is interesting, but nationals attendances were falling for a number of years before the Gill series was set up.  I also get the impression (as I don't have the access to the numbers - ship internet only works at dial-up speeds...) that Gill series turnouts are falling slowly too.  When it first started 30+ boats was regareded as a good turnout - now it seems to be 20+???
Stu - aha! The 'worthiness' argument.  That other class favourite for maintaining the status quo (gate starts, ridiculously long championships days etc...).  It doesn't matter about events being attractive, they should be as awkward as possible as it supposedly produces better sailors....Or maybe not.  Every small water club has its 'breeding ground of champions' myth like every religion has a creation myth.  However if this was true then surely these clubs would produce lots of champions? But they don't as a rule and in most cases you find that it was generally a one off and often quarter of a century before!  Given the numbers of tiny clubs and the number of championships it's possible to win in dinghy sailing its not really surprising that once in a while a particularly motivated individual comes along and goes onto great things.  The two small lake clubs I've been a member of, Olton Mere SC and Forfar SC have both shown this pattern - previous Moth world champion '85 at Olton, past Ent world champ at Forfar somewhere in the mists of time, however in both cases the general standard of the club fleet isn't as high as the 'reflected (and endlessly repeated) glory' assumes.
At the end of the day I'm not pushing to get rid of any water large or small that has an active fleet.  The criteria for inclusion should be a water that is  attractive to a wide variety of sailors and/or has a recent history of good attendances and/or has an active club fleet.  So events like Olton don't on any count fulfil this criteria whereas TVSC or Up River would.
Two other things come to mind:

• That if Phil Browns post is correct (and I hope it is) that the second hand list is moving well then there are actually a lot of new 12 sailors, generally in AC boats actively sailing in handicap fleets at clubs all over the place.  Therefore that we don't see larger turnouts at events suggests that the class isn't offering what people want.
• That the vintage wing already caters well for people who want river sailing in boats that are most suited to it.

Tim
PS Out of interest (I don't have the handbook available) when did a river club last win the Gypsy? 

[Derek]

It is great to see this topic getting some decent debate.
The large open meeting calander we have always had (it is much less now than it was!) means that the hot shots are always away and the impression left at club level is that of an obsolete or obsolecent boat incapable of sailing to it's handicap. I have long argued that the best way to build the class is at club level so a large number of meetings is not necessarily the best way to do this.
I would not necessarily advocate a major cull. Many meetings have gone already (Beeston, Notts County, Burton, Exe, Starcross and Saltash). I do think we should give thought to the idea of having 2 weekends a month without an open meeting. This would encourage people to club sail and make the fast boats and sailors more visible at  a club level. The result being that the class would appear more attractive (aspirational?) at club level and generate more grass roots interest.
It is interesting that the most resilient club fleets are those that travel very little. When the experts are on hand most weekends to advise and encourage, the effect is to build a fleet spirit.
...no I don't do much club sailing, but I have a better excuse than most!
 
Derek 3510

[Jimbo41]

Maybe more people would prefer a 12 AND sail competitively if they knew they would not be penalised for their weight....
Now I love my 12's but it's a fact that if you're like me (94Kg + 65 Kg) you can't get anyway up the fleet. And not just because I lack the skills. A good example of a skilled person would be Rick Purkins, last year with his wife at BW. He was not happy with the fact that despite obvious skills he could not get right to the front. Result, sold his 12 and moved on. I have the feeling that many people have seen a 12 and didn't get to the stage of buying one for that reason alone. Many people like to sail, but are too much on the heavy side for a 12. They then choose other boats that'll take the weight. I for example, am ideal crew weight for an FD or a 505, a Merlin - one design which'll take a bit of weight - or (heaven forbid) even a "flatiron" like the Wayfarer. Or, how would it be to own a Finn?
The alternative is just to take your (single) child along alone to an event like BW. Wifey or Hubby + remaining sprog(s) stay on shore, getting bored or doing other things than sailing, and the whole thing (BW or other events) despite social event alibis turns out to be at the end an egotrip for the lucky few who either are ideal weight adults or have been able to persuade their child crew that they can do well in such an event (even then it's not easy trying to tell an 11 year old to balance to boat when she's heeling "at 15° to 20°" to windward).
Oh, yes plus the tension created by "Spousey" who was promised a "family event" but ended up not seeing the "Other Half" at all except in the early mornings and evenings at the beer and Pimms 6 O'Clock swill, trying to understand the somewhat "private" sailing event jokes and ending up staring out to sea or at their feet and "Spousey's", wishing they'd gone on a sailing holiday on a nice yot in Greece.... 
Two (part) solutions to the problem. Fewer long weeks, more three day events (parts one and two?). AND a MINIMUM weight. Then perhaps more people will get interested.
Jim. N3470 and N3130 and Tasar 1293

[Jane Wade]

HI
When Meds was last Chairman he pioneered the idea of 'club sailing' weekends every month with a gap in the open calendar to accommodate them because the belief was that sailing at club level is key...
I cannot remember if it worked or not?!
 
Jane 

[tedcordall]

Derek has a good point here, in that open meetings do little to spread the gospel, as presumably the attendees at open meetings are already converted. That's not to say that opens are not important, merely that they don't foster growth in the class, other than by generating useful publicity in Y&Y.
 
Our club has developed a good fleet of Finns, from a hard core of 5 two years ago to 15 now, by being out on the water every weekend, encouraging newcomers, tuning each others' boats, lending boats out, and by being seen at or near the front of every race.  This seems to be the way to build a class. It does however rely on a few dynamic characters to motivate the others.
 
This isn't a shot at those who primarily do the circuit. We are all doing this to have fun. Nobody has an obligation to club sail or go to training events or go to opens or to sail a 12 even. Everybody has limited time available and has to do their own thing. I'm merely making the point that the class can only be fostered at club level.
 
As an aside, who is the class aimed at? ie who is the target convert? I ask because, while I have a cadet crewing for me while she's between boats, generally our cadets are locked into the squad system (oppi, topper, laser or mirror, feva, 420) and would no more sail a 12 than buy a skoda. The people who come up and love my boat all seem to be 30+ (as am I, sadly).  Perhaps an issue for another topic.

[Tim L (Guest)]

Yep, I think that Derek is spot on. 
I remember the club racing weekends idea but there's a difference between recommending weekends for club racing and actually leaving a sufficient space in the calendar.  50-60 events (even 2000 had 55+ events) spread over 21 weekends of the main sailing sesaon (March-Oct) doesn't leave much space at an average of 3 events per weekend.  Especially as at a guess our main intake are people sailing with their kids who are likely to sail mostly in the summer - the visibility for the class would be really useful at this time of year.
It's funny but i think it's almost a reassurance thing  - that seeing and talking to a reasonably competent 12 sailor keeps people motivated to sail the class.  That and maybe that it gives the impression that the 12 is a handicap bandit !