Events - the case for a cull

[icecreamman]

Tim I am afraid that I tend to disagree with you on some of your points. Derek's point about club sailing being the starting point for all of us is spot on. If we have too many meetings away from our clubs, nobody will be interested in sailing 12s. Open Meetings have to be allowed to die a natural death rather than being culled by the class, it is the clubs job to do that. As has been pointed out by Bernard previously we are in danger of losing Tynemouth as a venue for some fantastic sailing. We have through natural wastage seen the death of four meetings within a twenty mile radius of Nottingham as well as other meetings too numerous to mention across the country.
When I first started sailing 12s as a crew for my father certainly in the north the majority of meetings were traditionally held over two days. By the 1980s there was a move for more and more of them to go to one day events as it does not impinge so much on club resources. Two day events where clubs are geographically close is a good way of fostering interest. The Ripon/Yeadon weekend has worked extremely well for a long time, Trent Valley and Nottingham used to work and yes your two favourite Birmingham clubs used to do the same, If we do not want to go to a particular piece of water we only need to vote with our feet, or more correctly boats. (I do tend however to agree with you on the Olton situation).
Perhaps we ought to ask ourselves why we sail 12s. Did we come to them via our parents and continued to enjoy them when we left home and bought our own rather than borrowing our parents. Or did we come to 12s after sailing some other class and seeing how 12s perform out on the water. I think we have to be realistic about things, we are unlikely to get back to the days of 100+ boats sailing in Burton Week again, there are just too many other things to do. Plus we are not one of the RYA favoured classes for the squad type training and saliing. Would we really want to become Oppie or Topper parents having to race all over the place each weekend, or would we prefer to pick and choose which meetings we sail at?
Finally because of, or in spite of all the things that make a 12 a great boat to sail, and because we are not targets for large amounts of corporate cash we are more and more likely to have to sail in smaller fleets. We still continue to produce in my mind some of the best sailors around when you look at the other classes we are up against. Long may we continue with thought provoking threads like these.

[Tim L (Guest)]

Yes, there are certainly some valid points there.  But I wonder if opens weren't allowed to die a natural death and we were a bit more focused then we wouldn't be in the position of losing Tynemouth.  I'd guess its the repeated turning up with a small fleet and taking up a weekend that's a problem.  Maybe if we only turned up every second or third year but mob handed they'd be a bit more amenable?
 
I'm not sure we should accept the size of the class at present as inevitable.  36 boats at the champs and a few 20 boat opens seems dangerously on the edge.  All the other classes mentioned above comfortably exceed us in turnout bar the Tasars and only the one has corporate backing (the Fireflies managed 100+ champs and the Merlins clear 100 most years at Salcombe and then 70+ at their champs).  3500 boats built and maybe 500+ still in good competitive order - we can do better.  The trouble being that things only change when the class is forced to.
 
At the end of the day its less risky to play with the events a bit than trying to physically change the boat.  And easy to change back if it doesn't work out.   

[Roly Mo]

Tynemouth is an interesting example to use.  It's hard sea sailing at it's absolute best - I love sailing there and have had some of my best sea sailing experiences there, but . . . it can be incredibly offputting for those who aren't used to the sea to find you've got to get out of the harbour and into the bay and that you are likely to be doing 3 races back to back in big waves.  I wouldn't ever take a novice crew there and that's the limiting factor for me right now  - it will be another couple of years before I take Ellie on the sea in the 12 and it's likely to be on the relatively sheltered waters of Filey before I contemplate taking her to Tynemouth. 
If you look at the Northern fleet now I guess there are 4 or 5 of us who enjoy sea sailing and a lot more who would rather not go on the lumpy stuff (I stand to be corrected!), and of those 4 or 5 some of us just don't have the crews available at the moment. 

I guess my point is that regardless of focus some places just aren't a draw to the current racing fleet and we have to acknowledge that the customer base is changing and move with the times. 
 
RM

[Roly Mo]

Interesting comment in Paul's report on TVSC's meeting last weekend re low attendance.  TVSC is somewhere I'd dearly like to come and sail but . . .

• ban on dogs means we either leave someone at home to dog mind or have to put them into kennels
• if I'm to bring Ellie to crew (which I would have done) I wouldn't want to do a 2 day event with her on my own (which would force us down the dog boarding route) at this stage
• two days means either lots of travelling to and from York or paying to stay over (can't get the motorhome to the club due to bridges)

So, sorry I wasn't there, but make it a 1 day, allow dogs again, make sure it doesn't clash and we'll do our utmost to be there.
This issue (not the TVSC matter but the wider issue) is a debate well worth talking more about at Hykeham!
RM
 

[paul turner]

From that horrid bit of river at Trent Valley (where only two people have had problems with the dog ban because we rent the field to the farmer who keeps sheep) may I expand on the comments in the TVSC open meeting report.
My bet it is unlikley that we will hold another two day open meeting because of the poor turnout, and because it is not fair on, (and too embarrassing to ask) the rest of the club to give up their Sunday class racing for us and I'm certainly not going to put in that amount of effort if the N12s don't want to sail here!
So maybe we go for a Saturday only, but why should we bother when this disrupts our training days from which we get our new club members? Although the club is happy to support the vintage/4 plank event in September as we get 12+ attending.
So with the inceasing cost of fuel and our need to get more people sailing 12s, why don't we have a seriously reduced open meeting year (with say only GILLs and vintage?) and concentrate on building up our club fleets?
Sorry to be grumpy but I think we have lost the plot as a class in a very competitive dinghy world - and I'm banned from sailing for six weeks coz of the knee op which means missing not only Hykeham but also the TVSC June vintage/handicap event!

[THG]

Been thinking about comments here for a few days.  Personally I don't think that its the venues themselves that would prevent me attending.  Last year we managed 6 Gill events, 3 'other opens', planned to 2 do other Opens but didn't happen and attended one coaching event.  So far done NO sailing........
I have events on the calendar planning to do this year - the Gill events are important to support.
Personally its not the 'type' of water that would attract / distract me from sailing there - our sailing time is limited.  So choices have to be made - I pretty much did all our Clubs mid week series and maybe one or to of the Club 'trophy' days but thats about it.  No 12s to sail against at our club, handicap class turnouts at w/es tend to be small so I'd rather sail against other 12s and have fun that way!  Most likely to be the same this year too.  It is VERY hard to get a fleet of 12s going - there are very few around - it may help if we know where everyone is sailing - this may help us to have Opens that do I think help to foster some sort of 'local' support.  However some of our regions are WAY TOO big.  Maybe we need a bit of a cull or at least try to have smaller regional series and try to capture as many local sailors as possible.
I still feel that need to support the new owners that typically come through the AC root and often will be sailing with families and may not be able to do early season events.  Even the BW realistically there are 2 trophies for vintage / AC boats....I know this is not the only reason people do / do not attend BW.
It could still be possible to have a BW with over 100 boats, both the fireflies and the ents did this a couple of years ago - and the folks sailing those boats are likely to be quite similar (I would have thought)......fireflies was in their anniversary year, ents I think was pre-worlds - but even so - not everyone is a contender that attends these.
Single handed events - if getting a crew is limiting attendance why not let those that want to sail on their own do that.  BW or the Gill events could use one of the trophies for that - there are no youths around currently......
For open events - can clubs be more creative - hold joint with other classes, starts with club racing (Burghfiled does this OK), use part of day when no organised racing / training and then join in with club starts in pm.  I guess we can't be expected to have sole access to water if not enough attend - but if you drop the events then maybe those places will no longer support / attract 12s back again - a dilema that only the 'customer' (those of us that sail 12s) can answer. 
I believe the 12 is now a a bit of a niche boat and tends to attract those that have sailed before and want to get into something 'interesting'.  The lure of plastic fantastics though is difficult to ignore!  The mid week sailing is a good opportunity to sail the 12s, tend to beat the faster asymetrics on water but they still think they are going faster / having more fun with that extra rag up front!!!!
Looking forward to bar discussions at Hykeham  

[Antony (Guest)]

There are lots of interesting views being expressed.  Watch this space, as the Chairman is working on a concise agenda for a discussion at Hykeham on the future direction of the class.  Needless to say there will be a paricular focus on attracting new people, and on how to make sure that the NTOA is run by a large and enthusiastic bunch of people that together can devote the time and energy needed. 
Constructive suggestions are always welcome, and i think always have been, so please keep them coming and if possible come to Hykeham and/or the AGM at Teignmouth to listen to and participate in a lively debate.
On the subject of the number of fixtures it is not entirely clear to me who sets the number, and i say this as somebody who has been the fxtures guy in the past as well as Chairman twice.  In a general sense, for anybody not aware of this, the process is that the regions are asked to go away and come back with some suggested dates and venue while the Gill Series is chosen by the central committee from available options.  I am not sure whether the NTOA Committee should really turn around to a region and refuse to publish dates that they have proposed, and so there is a responsibilty on those regional reps to identify the number and the venues.  This is how it has been working, whether people realise or not.  As i am also Eastern Rep and i can tell you that after 2007 i elected to eliminate two events that were poorly attended, but left in a couple of others that were of tenuous value in the hope that people that wanted them preserved would support them in 2008.
One historical fact, there was a period when we agreed to leave one weekend a month free of any open meetings to encourage club fleets.  In the absence of any evidence that this meant more people sailing at their home clubs on the free weekend this constriction was lifted from whomever compiled fixtures the following year.  One thing it did highlight was the relatively large proportion of open meeting attendees that were basically without any home club and would not sail their 12 that weekend if there was no open meeting (myself included as N1 is not a good postcode for club sailors).
Finally, do not get cause and effect too confused.  This debate about the fixture list is part of a much wider debate...... we have too many poorly supported events because too few energetic younger people are sailing 12s, a stronger class (like Merlins or 200s) can support a much longer list of fixtures that we can at present.
Enough for now,
Antony
 

[Steve (Guest)]

Roly Mo has mentioned that Trent Valley does not attract them partly beacuse it's a 2 day event and would prefer a 1 day event. For me in the case of Tynemouth the opposite is probably true. You can never satisfy everyone all the time and I guess it's getting the balance right. Tynemouth has always offered fantastic open sea sailing venue with the facility to launch and even race in the relative shelter of the harbour if conditions are rough and it would be a shame if we were to loose this as an open meeting venue. In fact if you don't count Burton week and NWNW I think we only have Filey as an open sea event that we are planning to do this year. However, Tynemouth as a 1 day event it is not likely to attract entries from far away and will rely on the closer fleets to support it. I regularly used to make the trip for a 2 day event, but in the last few years I have missed it because 6 hours round trip is a bit far for one day of sailing.

Steve
N3436

[angus]

So with the inceasing cost of fuel and our need to get more people sailing 12s, why don't we have a seriously reduced open meeting year (with say only GILLs and vintage?) and concentrate on building up our club fleets?

Paul for some of us who don't live in the midlands most Gill and vintage meets are out of reach what ever the price of petrol. And the way only be a few boats that turn up for the Scottish meets but I think Roly Mo and Homer will tell you they are hottly competed.

[angus]

So with the inceasing cost of fuel and our need to get more people sailing 12s, why don't we have a seriously reduced open meeting year (with say only GILLs and vintage?) and concentrate on building up our club fleets?

Paul for some of us who don't live in the midlands most Gill and vintage meets are out of reach what ever the price of petrol. And the way only be a few boats that turn up for the Scottish meets but I think Roly Mo and Homer will tell you they are hottly competed.

[Tim L (Guest)]

Couple of interesting ones here Antony,
"One thing it did highlight was the relatively large proportion of open meeting attendees that were basically without any home club and would not sail their 12 that weekend if there was no open meeting (myself included as N1 is not a good postcode for club sailors)."
Perhaps, but are we running the class for the core of 20-25 crews who attend (mostly thames and eastern area) opens and the Champs - or are we running it for the majority of 12 owners.  The decrease of Burton Week to the point that this core makes up almost the whole entry suggests most of the decisions taken in the last few years have been in their (apparent) interests.  If we have a couple of seasons of fewer events then I think a lot of these people will find their way back into club sailing and will probably be willing to travel further afield for decent opens (e.g. a 2 day Tynemouth....).  Scarcity generally making things more attractive...
  
"a stronger class (like Merlins or 200s) can support a much longer list of fixtures that we can at present."
But they don't - which is my point...  And the 200s (and the Larks who also appear have a youngish demographic) have barely any restricted water events (Possibly 3 on the RS calendar - but that's only an assumption as I don't recognise 3 of the clubs).
On another note I'd like to point out that nowhere on this thread have I used the term 'horrid little river'.  The credit there is all down to Stu.

[Antony (Guest)]

I think that to question the motives of the few people committed enough to the class to give up their free time to run it is more than somewhat unfair.  Decisions made in the past are easier to judge with hindsight, and indeed some might have been wrong, but I have never doubted that my efforts and decisions, and those others that i have worked with in the NTOA, were all with the worthy objective of strengtening the class overall.  Tim, you need to think a bit before you write things on a forum that people might find simplistic, ill thought out or just rude.
My point about club sailing is simply that the previous time this was raised, now some years ago, the conclusion was that it led to fewer 12s sailing each weekend in the country and that was thought to be a bad thing.  If you would rather we all kept our boats in the garage and brought them out less often then fine, but i suspect that you somehow think that we are going to go sailing at clubs that we do not live near or are not members of.  I sailed this weekend in a 5 boat fleet where i am pretty sure that only one would have been sailing at all at the weekend had it not been one of the small open meetings that you so despise.
I agree, there probably are too many open meetings, but disagree that it is the most important issue facing the NTOA.
Antony

[Roly Mo]

I sincerely hope that the forum mentioned above isn't the only entertainment planned for Saturday evening at Hykeham - as family events go I don't think sitting talking about the future of the class will do much for Family Clark. 
RM

[John T (Guest)]

Mandy and I have also just returned from a very enjoyable days sailing and socialising with a 7 boat N12 fleet on a pretty restricted piece of water at Desborough. Without this local Open Meeting I would definitely not have been sailing today, or had the opportunity to talk about sailing National12s with a likeminded group of people.
Maybe this should be what Club sailing is about, but for us the opportunity to sail at a range of different venues is more attractive.
I believe that Tim is trying to make us all think about a very important problem - we would all like bigger turnouts at our major events - but I am pretty sure that culling small, locally supported, Open Meetings will not have any impact on the bigger problem. Having said that, it is a big problem and I for one would be happy to try anything that had a reasonable chance of increasing turnout at the bigger events.
John and Mandy N3443
 
 

[angus]

I must echo Rolys point, I will be coming to hykem with a 13 year old and a possiby a ten year old. If we spent saturday night sounding off our own belovid oppinions and staring at our navels it will be our last summer meet.