2nd hand boats

[James Taylor]

As a two year old N12 Sailor I brought an AC to start ,still up for sale but I moved quickly when disiding to get a DB boat but as alway funds were very short and N3402 had been up for a while and I got a good deal from Steve, But if funds and time aloud would love to either build from sctrach, Fit out or buy from a builder complete and I expect there are many other like me the money isn't there to buy a new boat.
Rick brought a second hand boat and is alway talking about new boats so if you can afford it go get one and release your's to another.

Yoda most people can olny sail one at a time you want 3. The MASTER AT WORK.

Cheers
James
N3304 Up for Sale
N3402

[rick perkins]

[quote by=James_Taylor link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool1,m=1178611316,s=15 date=1178707636]Rick brought a second hand boat and is alway talking about new boats so if you can afford it go get one and release your's to another.
 [/quote]

I have only had this one 5 minutes but I would be perhaps interested in a new boat in years to come once I have understood more about the boats.

The reason I raised this is because a friend showed interest in my boat and I was going to email him some options and I had never seen the 2nd hand boat list devoid of any DB's - thats good & bad ...

[Jimbo41]

[THG]

Can we encourage those wanting a boat (DB or otherwise) use the wanted section.  This may help to identify any potential demand and at what price point they are willing to go to.

If people REALLY want a DB they always have an option of buying new!!

Are people being put off sailing their ACs due to the non-draining aspect??  There's more likely to be other reasons (time commitments, lack of crews, lack of knowledge how to set up & sail etc).  Would be good to have more training maybe aimed at the ACers (incl. rigging / setting up as this is an area new to the class seem to be daunted by) and also have some of the 'top sailors' maybe get out once in a while in an AC and show us how it should be done.  ACs can still win Opens (maybe not BW)...

I've avoided the no-wind capsize issue but with some practise can now drain out in windy conditions (subject to mast staying in one piece  :B)

Kean

[Jane Wade]

Kevin and I sailed an ACer until quite recently and won a race at Pevensey Open Meeting with Tom, Antony, Jonno, Meds and the Cams on the water all in DB boats so it can be done.  I think however that 3373 is probably the best AC boat sailing.

Sadly I am not sailing until later this year and P&B dependent it will either be in a shiny new DB Foolish or in 3373.  

Rick is spot on with this one.  No DB boats on the second hand list is not great news for progressing the class and the lack of new boats on the water is pretty dreadful. Not everyone wants to enter the class via the AC route and I am sure they are many sailing an ACer keen to trade up to a DB 12.  My conclusion would be a short second hand list in this instance is actually a bad thing.  If new boats are not being built by default the class is shrinking!

Jane

[Kevin]

Double Bottom boat now on the secondhand list.

[Grebesailor]

Whoa, there.

At the risk of offending some, lets look at the class as a whole.

We have 3500+ boats, up to 90 or so of which are DB.

This leaves 3409 which fall into the categories from vintage to AC.

The whole tone of this thread follows the trend of the past few years, summed up by DB "good", AC "entry level, we'll chuck it a few minor prizes to allow you to come and keep numbers up, but chuck it asap and get the holy grail (DB)"

I sail an AC design because I like it, it's better suited to my sailing requirements which don't, at the moment , include the championships. (Why just make up the numbers?)Yes, I would spend money on it to upgrade the rig, foils and some fittings, but I don't because the prices of AC's have been totally depressed by the obsession with DB and the investement can not therefore be justified. Look at the prices of new rigs

The DB boats create a quantum leap within the class, both in terms of cost and therefore availability, instead of a smooth progression from old to newer to new the re is only one option, new if you now want to enter and be competitive.

This was fairly obvious from the start. The Merlins don't have the problem, and it is therefore worrth upgrading some old boats until one arrives at the point where an upgrade or a newer boat becomes a toss up.

Older 12's now have no incentive to upgrade, hence the numbers that are rotting away in club dinghy parks. (The cost of new sails can be more than an AC is worth.)

If Anthony wants to create bigger fleets, etc then stop marginalising the majority of 12's in existence and say, to those people who don't like the class rule as it is, and the discipline of development within it, go and create a class and organisation of your own. I'm not anti-development, the Merlins develop within a structure that goes back to the origins of the class in a smooth progression, but the quantum leaps aren't there.

I have been trying to interest a colleague in an unused AC 12 in our dinghy park. His response is, no point, it can't compete with the newer boats. He has therefore acquired a Firefly.

Giles
N3319

[Barry]

well said.

[THG]

[Antony]

Giles,
I think that you have missed some points, and made some good ones.

This thread was explicitally about buying older DB boats, because that is what the author of the first posting wanted to talk about.  There are people that want to come into the fleet with a DB boat, rather than an AC boat, and we need to cater to all of the demand that is out there, so this is a relevant thread.

There are, as you correctly point out, far more AC boats in the world.  The NTOA does not organise a single event that is solely for the DB fleet.  It does organise Vintage events, and discusses regularly ways to attract more active 4-Planker and Ac activity at events that are organised.  The old boat prizes have existed in the fleet for decades, if there are better ways to encourage wider participation then let me know.  I very much hope that the NTOA Summer Party at Ripon will see the DB fleet as a small minority of a large and enthusiastic N12 fleet.

There is another issue, which has been discussed by the General Committee, that there is no coherent consitiuency of AC sailors that can be drawn into debating these issues.  If there was a volunteer, or a way to create a body, in the same way as the Vintage Wing, to represent the AC fleet at General Committee level then I would be happy to hear from them.  It is true that the Committee is primarily comprised of DB sailors, although far from exclusivly, but this is because they volunteer.

There is nothing that we as a class can do about the cost of rigs and sails.  The modern AC boats, such as a D8, have not depreciated meaningfully in 10 years, and so I am not sure I follow your point here.  If you try to put new sails on an old Lark or Firefly the equation looks at least as imbalanced as in our fleet.  A lot of us on the Committee, and dare I admit it very happily sailing our DB boats, put in a lot of time helping people track down and buy AC boats to enter the class and then training people whatever boat they show up with.

Finally, I am not aware of any meangingful rule change that is being discussed at present.  There are occassional discussions about low budget ways to enable heavier crew combinations to be competitive but at present the fact that the boat is only 12 feet long and quite light seem to be a block on any thought on this front.  I think that almost everybody that was involved in the class in the 1990s accepts that the rule changes were too sudden at that time, some should probably have happened in the 1980s and overall they should have taken more than 10 years rather than 3.  That is history, and something that we all have to deal with going forward.  

The NTOA as a body, and that includes the Chairman, has no doubt that it is working for all owners of National 12s, whatever their age (of them or their boat!).

Antony (no 'h')
Chairman, NTOA (1997-98, 2006-07)

[rick perkins]

I fear I may have stumbled into an old issue ...

I was just asking about availability of 2nd hand boats as someone had asked me who had seen mine ...

With regards to older boats it's worth recognising that in One-Designs and Manufactures classes you don't usually see 10 year old boats at the front of the fleet; some exceptions of course but usually the keener people have newer boats.

Seems to me the NTOA do more to accomodate and recognise older boats then any other class assocation.

There are no old boat prizes at the Laser or RS events ...

[janeysailor12]

[quote by=James_Taylor link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool1,m=1178611316,s=15 date=1178707636]As a two year old N12 Sailor N3402 [/quote]


Gosh!!! you started young did'n't you    How on EARTH did you manage to peep over the side decks??

Janey

[paul turner]

Only just read through this thread; various points to observe:-

1. No S/h DBs for sale? Did I see that N3491 Electric Prune is for sale? And last year no sensible offers for Crazy Diamond (Big Issue 2).

2. What is so great about DB anyway? I have had the floor taken out of N3500 and she is so much more comfortable to sail, and much easier to handle/get around. And even in a capsize she will only half fill with water thanks to a wide central full lenght bouyancy tank. (As I sail inland most of the time, I might just go back to an AC boat if a reasonable offer comes along for N3500).

3. So what are post N3414 non DB boats classed as now? Apparently not AC, but what? Crazy Diamond is not the only one that has been converted.

[rick perkins]

[quote by=paul_turner link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool1,m=1178611316,s=27 date=1178892465]Only just read through this thread; various points to observe:-

1. No S/h DBs for sale? Did I see that N3491 Electric Prune is for sale? And last year no sensible offers for Crazy Diamond (Big Issue 2).

[/quote]

That boat wasn't on the list when I started this thread ...

[Antony]

Paul,
Point three is a good one.  There are two kinds of single-bottom boat with numbers higher than N3414.

1. The two or three amatuer built boats that were finished late and so have late numbers (from memory these might include 3422 and 3434).  In my view any race committee should use their discretion and allow them to compete for any AC prizes and be regarded as Ac boats.
2.  Boats, with yours the current best example, built after all of the signficant rule changes but opting to not have a full DB.  The last Committee discussion on this subject, as I recall, concluded that there was not reason not to regard these as fully competitive modern 12s able to win any prize that a DB boat could win.  You can call it what you want, but Crazy D is certainly not old or an AC boat!  I would like to see more people build boats with a layout like you now have, as i can see it being a competitive and attractive option for people wanting a bit more comfort and stability.

To a previous post, or two, I think that the Gill events at Trent Valley, West Riding and Ripon are good examples of the willingness of the class to host major events at venues were the advantages of the modern boats are limited and (at least at TV) possibly non-existent.  

Antony