Avioding the Windward Broach!

[Capsize King! (Guest)]

Help and Tips on this one.

I sail a Crusader 88, with my 11 year old son, combined crew weight 18 stone. I have found over the last 2 outings with any breeze (say Force 4+), on a beam/broad reach when a gust hits, the boat seems to want to bear off suddenly, and tip us in to windward.

I am not sure if this is because our crew weight is not equal (he is 5.5 stone I am 12.5 stone),my weight on the side of the boat is too much (!!), or sails are not set up correctly ie too much kicker, or the mast rake/position is wrong. Or is this amount wind too much for our crew weight, and this is what to expect in a Crusader!

I owned a 12 previously and never had this problem before. In fact the only capsizes in this boat has been to windward an only for the same reason!

Whilst a dunking does not bother me too much, I don't want it to put off the little 'un!

Anyone else had this problem??


Martin

[philipcosson]

i've definitely ad this problem - don't have the solution though!

We are slightky heavier 8st and 12.5 st and we have a Baggy T

Philip

N3253

[Capsize King! (Guest)]

Philip,

Thanks for sharing your experiences!

I have read the N12 pdf on the website on boat handling, and it does seem that too muck kicker can cause this.

Will try less kicker next time, as I seem to recall that I didn't let it off after the beat!

Martin

[DavidW]

As the boat starts falling over on top of you quickly pull in a couple of feet or so of mainsheet - this is likely to save your swim - if it keeps coming pull in more mainsheet, when all seems lost drop the tiller and use two hands for the job, the rudder will be next to useless at this stage anyway - it's amazing the angle that you can recover from with this technique.

Can't say I've sailed a Crusader much but have certainly experienced this urge to fall over to windward in many designs and with different crew/ helm weight combinations.

Could be not nough kicker - the top of the sail suddenly twists off and balance is lost.

Good luck  -  report back on the results here.

Cheers

[icecreamman]

Sailing at Kippford a couple of weeks ago we had this problem as the wind was shifting all over the place or just dying from having been a F4 seconds previously. The joys of DBs and the ability to virtually water start was amazing. A few of the RS200s sailing round us did not manage this trick. Tee hee

[Jimbo42]

[quote by=ice_cream_man link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool1,m=1179588298,s=4 date=1179656308] The joys of DBs and the ability to virtually water start was amazing. A few of the RS200s sailing round us did not manage this trick. Tee hee[/quote]

ICM!
My daughter Emma (10) has just had a brace fitted and calls RS200s "RS POO 100s" (wonder if the name will stick )
Kicker seems to be the problem, since it happened to us in the Tigress a while back.

Cheers!

Jim.

 

[andymck]

This can happen when the centre of effort of the rig gets in front of the centre of effort for the board. If you are very broad reaching or running when it happens, it is usually due to lack of kicker, as the top of the main goes forward and starts pushig the mast to windward.
If happening on a tighter reach or the bare away, it maybe the board coming up too much, and therefore moving its centre of effort too far behind that of the rig. The big brother of the RS pooh hundred really suffers from this in big winds, especially if dont realise what the big piece of elastic is for.

Andy

[simon ballantine]

Had a very similar experience a few weeks ago on a fast reach when the centreboard suddenly rode up, the boat skidded sideways and we didn't!  

I have noticed this effect too, where a gust hits, the boat takes-off and there is a sudden reduction in heeling moment.  I  had put this down to the boat suddenly accellerating onto the plane, changing the apparant wind direction and strength so I guess sheeting in the main may be the answer.

[icecreamman]

What I failed to say was that was nearly in the drink when on the beat! Still we did not get wet.
 

[angus]

Better than you managed with the commodores wife at North berwick then ICM

[icecreamman]

Jealousy gets you nowhere Angus

 

[greight expectations]

What a pair!

You Two I mean!!  

Roger

[John Meadowcroft]

This happened to me in the mast but for whatever reason (hopefully hidden somewhere below) it is no longer a problem.  I think that the weight differential is important.

Most of the advice in this thread bar the  commodores wife bits is sound.  The problem when it occurs is exacerbated by the weight differential as once the boat is unbalanced the big bear away can become inevitable.

I have sailed for years with large differences in helm/crew weight.  You need to get crew on the side deck and position yourself appropriately to balance.  More rather than less kicker will tend to help as this will give a tendency for the boat to luff up rather than bear away.  Sheeting in at the moment of panic (although this is really quite late on; we are trying to avoid panic) will also help.  It is probably too late to put the board down.

The other observation is what are you doing with your shrouds downwind?  When you ease the shroud you will increase leech tension as the top of the mast falls away.  The obvious thing to do is to then let the kicker off to get the right sail shape.  Then the big puff arrives and you think - make the mast secure and pull the leeward shroud back on....  If you do not then also pull more kicker on it will be overeased and this will encourage the bear away.

It is difficult to pull everything at once.

Get your son to call the gusts upwind and downwind.  It is fun to do, helps them keep really involved and also gives you the news that it is about to get wobbly!  We call gusts on a countdown 5,4,3,2,1 etc,  often it goes 5,4,4,4,3,3,2,1 but that does not matter.  upwind is easiest to practice as you can do it together.  Downwind if you can rely on your son you will find that you can even luff up to get to the gusts first.  

Hope this helps and that you stop swimming soon.

john

[Derek]

Agree with Meads on the kicker issue.
More, not less, kicker.
Carbon masts (with softer topmasts) increase the effect.
Big gust increases load on sail, topmast gives and leech opens.
On a reach, the twisting open of the topmast pushes forward and down with the upper part of the sail rather than creating heeling moment.
In extreme cases, on a run, the head of the sail gets forward of the mast and the departing air pushes the mast to windward.
Under these circumstances, haul in on kicker, windward shroud or mainsheet or anything that comes to hand to get the top batten back behind the shround.

On closer reaches, effect can also be crew driven.
Crew hears feels gust, hears wind howling in ears and sits out hard, when in fact heeling moment is reducing.
It is important to explain that the one thing the helm can do nothing about is windward heel.

The process goes something like this:-
The boat starts to heel to windward and the lee helm increases.
If balance is not restored, the unfortunate driver ends up sitting in the water with the tiller pushing him/her out of the boat.
Then you start to float off the toe-straps which means you have no leverage on the helm.
The coup de grace comes when the rudder stalls 'cos there insn't much of it left in the water now anyway.
At this point it is small comfort to see that the crew is keeping you company on the windward side of the boat as the visible world turns a murky green.

It is very important to get the crew to anticipate lulls and windward roll from waves, particularly with big weight differentials.
The helm can minimise risk by not getting too committed when the boat is feeling skitish.
Arrange the boat so you can get yourself back in quickly, even if the crew does miss one.

Hope this might be of some help.

[Capsize King! (Guest)]

Derek/John,

Thanks for the useful insight, and Derek I can relate to the boat feeling skittish.

I shall not blame the young lad, he is learning just as much as me, but at present he seems to just sit in the middle of the boat on the thwart just playing the jib, and not really looking out for the gusts.

John the game for counting down the gusts will given him a good insight about what he needs to do, and prepare him for the moves he needs to make...

As for me I shall look at the mainsail.. in truth on Saturday, the kicker was quite tight, and the shrouds were not adjusted at all... so perhaps look at that, and get the balance of the boat better.

Many thanks for the tips, we shall see how we go.

Martin