Are we an ageing population?

[Mikey C]

Boat on boat racing full stop is the only reason for having the class in the first place, otherwise you might as well just sail whatever 12 foot boat suited your fancy. Mine would have a daggerboard and spinnaker but I would have no friends to race with. Open meetings are important, as is club sailing but one will always suffer the other.

Kean, the first two boats in your list are single bottoms!

"Dare Barry has said that his hull material costs add up to no more than around 600-800 Squid"

Jim, you could build a glass sandwich hull for not much more than this, if you have the time or the inclination to DIY. Problem is most dont and resort to purchase. Whatever way you look at it saving money on the hull is only a tiny fraction of the all up cost of a boat. The consensus boat only exists if you want to build it. When you realise that actually the project will cost at least 5K you might as well do it properly.

Mikey C,
3031 and 3487. (Does it count if there is no hull?)

[Jimbo41]

Mike, I'm trying to understand what you have written here:

"Jim, you could build a glass sandwich hull for not much more than this, if you have the time or the inclination to DIY."
 (I only quoted Dare, since he has given a complete breakdown for one of his hulls)
 
"The consensus boat only exists if you want to build it."

(I don't understand. Be more direct.)

"When you realise that actually the project will cost at least 5K you might as well do it properly."

(Meaning that  no "home built" boat is ever properly done...??)

I don't have a complete breakdown of the material costs.... Any estimates?

(In other words, pay someone to do it for you, 'cos you'd never get it right? I say sit back and wait for your next customer....)

Interesting. If this is a consensus opinion, perhaps we as a class as a whole and the builders need to work on our advertising...  

Jim N3130 and 3470 (much revised)

[Mikey C]

No, I'm saying a home built boat will cost you close to 5K by the time you have added masts, sails, foils, trailers and the like in. The material cost difference between 800 for a ply boat and 1000 for a glass/foam one is b***er all in the grand scheme of things. Everyone sees the hull cost and goes "woo, thats cheap" but its not the hull that costs the money...
My wording was obviously poor and I must have misunderstood your consensus build comment the first time around.


Some home builds are properly done, and I mean no slight on anyone who gives it a shot, but to do a home build properly you have to draw a line under your own skills somewhere and concentrate on doing the bits you can. masts and foils are generally better left to experts until you have enough experience. My first boat I knew I would be up against it and bought in the rig and foils, my second I built everything except the mast and sails.

[Jane Wade]

[rick perkins]

[quote by=Jane_Wade link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool,m=1163443689,s=33 date=1163535829]I could go on ranting having sailed this Burton Week with my dear husband who seems to have highlighted every negative aspect of a class I have sailed, loved and even chaired in the last twenty years!

Jane[/quote]

What is that negative aspect ?

[Jimbo42]

[John Meadowcroft]

the facts of the burton week attendances of the last 10 years demonstrate that the entry numbers of over aged 40 helms have gone from 30% to 50% of the fleet.  The percentage under 21 has remained stable.  This suggests to me that on a Burton Week attendance level at least, we are an ageing population.  This demographic would also suggest greater disposable incomes and therefore the price of the boats should be less of an issue.  I suppose that this is conflicting evidence!

Meds.

[rick perkins]

Price will always be an issue for some but I would not obsess about it ...

Our 2nd had prices are comparible with the off the shelf boats and the 12 is a far superior product ...

Rick

[JohnK (Guest)]

Are we an aging population? I am the 58 year old helm of a 48 year old 12, with 20 year old sails and a 66 year old crew. Is this a record? (Probably not.)

John (N1662)

[philipcosson]

This seems to be moving off topic a little... But having just started a company and having had to write a business plan (ugh!) I can tell you that all marketing advice is to be Market led, not Product led.

Whats the difference? Product or Market Led? In a sales or product led business the seller expects the customer to buy whatever they can supply. Successful businesses adopt a market led approach by producing or selling what the customer wants or needs. Think more about the market rather than the product or service.

Here endeth the marketing lesson... (not that I have taken this advice myself, I'm sure my product will sell, because I LIKE IT!)

Philip
N3253

[rick perkins]

... I'm just off to suck some eggs ...

[Tim L (Guest)]

Jane,

We need more builders but should all buy winder foolishes, erm?  Surely its the 'hassle free-ness' and easy pace of all the current designs that means people don't feel the need to upgrade.  I can't speak for Kevin but the other two BI2s on the end hand list are there for purely practical reasons, knees in Pauls case and moving countries in mine.  I certainly wouldn't part with my Mike built boat otherwise - I  certainly felt at the champs that I could hold height and speed with Tom just fine (with 18 month old, well used mainsail) it was the lack of practice, lack of fitness and poor decision making on my part that meant we were only 9th (on 1 days practice in the whole year...)

Define reasonable price...

Fast turnover of boats seems to happen 3 ways:

Sophisticated and expensive SMOD advertising to convince owners they need a newer boat (but aren't they all perfectly equal anyway...)

Bucketfulls of wonga to upgrade for the hell of it (i.e. Merlins)

Bucketfulls of wonga and fast obsolescence of designs (i.e. 14s)

The 12s have none of these things as a general rule and to look at the positive our biggest selling point is being able to have an individualised boat that will be competitive for a decent length of time.

As for the AC idea, great as a theory but only works in practice in the unlikely event that everyone is of the same ability. At one point Starcross was seeing up to 8 ACs racing but the fleet is only together for the first 50yds and then would seperate up by ability.  The only place to get regular close racing is on the open circuit - I'm sure this is the same for any other class with small club fleets.  Maybe if you had a 25 boat club fleet then maybe having 5 boats of a similar level might be viable - time to start pressing the flesh at northampton  

[IanL]

[philipcosson]

Hi Rick,

Did not realise there was a marketing guru in our midst (perhaps more than one?) Do I take it that you agree, we should be more market driven?

The comittee focus seems the be to protect the product at all costs, whether ther is a market or not. Which is understandable, because anyone on the committee will find it hard to see the class from the outsiders point of view.

Philip
N3253

[Jimbo41]

Philip,

I think you can protect the product and still market it successfully. There are so many reasons why people sail 12's. You've just go to pick the market incentive(s)/drivers that is/are current and push the corresponding  positive reasons for sailing the 12 which already exist, be it: individuality; (class) conviviality; children + family sailing; go-kart speed feeling; responsiveness; history; teaching capacity; long competitve life, and so on.

Let's get on with it at the Next Boat Show shall we....

Jim N3130 (27 years old and still going strong) and N3470 (6 years old and .....)