Weight changes?????

[a (Guest)]

[quote by=mack link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool,m=1159961563,s=24 date=1160724202]Hi everyone,

Just had to reply to this! I am new to the class, I have a boat where the sails were measured in 1979 but the boat was not. I have spent the last two months preparing her to sail and now am waiting for the courage to risk her on the water.

Mack

Have you checked with Kevan Bloor to see if your boat was measured?  It may have been once, in which case he can issue a new certificate, no tape measure required.

[Jimbo41]

[Mikey C]

While I agree with Jim's sentiments, that only works if you havent boxed your boats into a corner with the rules.
In the 12s there are lots of db boats, all rigged practically identically and only one person in the fleet actually trying something different and most of the stuff he tried has been banned since. Just make the class a OD and get it over with and stop attracting people with the development badge because it is misleading.

Jon_P - spot on. Apart from the bit about your wooden boat being sexier than carbon - there is nothing cooler than shiny black weave!

Antonys hesitancy may have been caused by a poorly managed weight redection last time around where it, combined with many other factors miffed a lot of people off. What cant be done is the same as last time and leave any weight reduction too long and have too big a hit all at once. baby steps, people can keep up.

The 12 should be the lightest boat of its type for the materials that go into it and the associated price tag. It is barely lighter than the Tasar which is a bigger boat...

[Jimbo41]

[quote by=Mikey_C link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool,m=1159961563,s=32 date=1160729904] "only one person in the fleet actually trying something different and most of the stuff he tried has been banned since".

Who is he?


"Just make the class a OD and get it over with and stop attracting people with the development badge because it is misleading."

 Please don't !

"Jon_P - spot on. Apart from the bit about your wooden boat being sexier than carbon - there is nothing cooler than shiny black weave! "  

Don't forget the stocking tops!!!!!

"The 12 should be the lightest boat of its type for the materials that go into it and the associated price tag"

Agreed. But you can build a wooden 12 that's down to weight and doesn't cost the earth. Ask Dare Barry (My Guru   ). We don't need space technology (- hence the current cost of carbon) to build a fast boat. You can also use a different rig even on a wooden boat.

Let's keep the debate light and friendly, after all we all want the best for the class - don't we?

Jim N3130 (Wood's right!)

[MarkSimpson]

[Mikey C]

Jimbo, that man is Gavin Willis.

The OD comment was OTT. I am somewhat frustrated by the classes insistance that we need to keep old boats competitive as it is mutually exclusive to moving forwards. We embrace the technology and the price tag, but are afraid of letting the boats actually get any faster. Dare has moved with the times and is making good boats in wood/foam carbon, and doing it cheaply, but foam/epoxy/glass could be almost as cheap if anyone was that way inclined, but unfortunately after a brief spate, homebuilding has dried up again.
There is nothing stopping anyone taking their wooden boat and redecking it/flooring it to stiffen it up if they think the hull shape is up to it.

Anyway, will try and keep in good humour in the future.

Mike C
Moth GBR4083 - N12 3031
Wood, good for the ark, burning and furniture

[THG]

Agreed - the ACs are competitive and can have enjoyable racing maybe slightly down the fleet - however even IF I had the best set up boat there is I doubt I would see that dramatic a change in performance.  I think we just need to get MORE ACs out sailing so they feel they get good racing wherever they are in the fleet.  Be realistic if you want to be at the front of the fleet in (almost) any Class you would need to get a newish boat / kit.  At least we can change ours a bit to try to keep up - but I have no good way of taking out my 10kg excess - but I think practise and learning how to sail boat faster would make more off an impact in short term.

How to we encourage those hundreds of ACs which are still capable of being sailed well and overwhelm the DBs just on numbers alone??  DBs have about 100 or so built / converted.

Ideally it would be nice to be able to reduce the weight of all the boats and make them quicker etc but does it really matter vs having good sailing in a Classy little boat.

Kean

[Alex D]

As we are all having a go, my view is ..

There are the advantages and disadvantages of having less mass in the boat. For me the distribution is more important than the limit. The distribution of any mass changes the centre of gravity but also the centre of gyration of the boat. This will impact on the twichiness of the boat. The lighter the boat (with correctors) the more control you have over both these characteristics. With the mass well distributed over the hull you get a different feel. This is a big plus for well designed light boats at present.

In light winds you need to get all that mass moving at speed. Acceleration would be better with less mass. A level playing field here is important, so by decreasing the limit you make boats that can't go on a diet less competitive.

Using a Formula one analogy, set an envelope with the rules (this has been done) and delevlop to the limit of these criteria. Only change them if you have reached stagnation or are going down a path you don't like.

I'd still expect the crews in newer boats to be toward the front through a combination of skill, enthusiasm and investment of time and money in their chosen sport.

My plan is to understand how to get the best out of the boat I have and then get the best boat I can afford.

I'm also looking for a winter crew. they must be 7'2" and have a centre of gravity above their shoulders for maximum hiking ability, but I'll start a new thread for that one.

[Jimbo42]

[philipcosson]

it is true - you can build a wooden boat down to weight at 78kg - but some of the carbon boats need 20kg of correctors to get to 78kg.

If we went to, say. 60kg all up wieght - would carbon be the only build material possible?

Philip

N3253 (92kg all up!)

[tedcordall]

[RogerBrisley]

As Mark Simpson says there are several AC boats who are very quick (in the north and possibly else where)

on the whole this success is probably due to the committment that the helm and crew give to their sailing,  not only in terms of keeping the boats up to date with carbon sticks and possibly foils,  decent sails and judicious other weight saving tactics,  but mainly effort and practice, learning from experience.  Granted for equal ability the fattest wallet will win,  but more often than not it is sheer ability of a team that producs the result not the boat.  

A regular crew or access to an experienced 12 crew prepared to match the helms efforts or better is likely to have far more impact on performance than any savings in weight in most conditions.

Let them have their lighter boats,  and leave us ac boats to aim high in the knowledge that it is mainly our own skills that will keep us competitive,  not the latest gismo or weight reduction ( though if any body wants to sell me a carbon stick for the peice of a Pizza I won't stop them!)

The sooner AC sailors grasp this committment thing and come out to play more the sooner we AC Boats will (?)dominate (glass likely to be half full) open events (more of us than them)

Roger

3334 (plastic AC getting out more)

[Tim]

[Interested (Guest)]

[rick perkins]

Seems to me that some people are proposing that dropping the weight would stimulate development & new builds ... which seems to me perhaps not the case.

I am sure the current rule set offers plenty of scope for development but as for new builds I suspect there are less of these because of the cost and the difficulty of home build.

When you could knock a boat up from a few bits of ply in your garage many would be tempted to experiment ... but now doing the same from carbon with all the costs of a mould it is less likely.

...so now onto a new thread about home building? ....