Newbie questions ...

[rick perkins]

Here are some questions that I can't find the answers to on the website;

1) What is the ideal weight for each of the prevalent modern designs?

2) Is there any record of which designs/sailmakers have performed best over the last 3 years?

3) How many boats do you get at your average open meeting?

4) I assume all the top guys using carbon spars, which manufactures feature at the front of the fleet?

regards,

Rick

[some info (Guest)]

[MikeDay]

Just a bit more in addition to the info in the reply above - all of which is spot on:

1.  There's a lot of propoaganda about weight but you'll find people winning open meetings across the whole range <17 - >23stones, though it is harder work, as the earlier reply says if you are at either end of this spectrum.  Chapters reputedly carry weight better.
2. Those are the main sailmakers, but not the only ones.  On the whole however, if you're new to the class, better stick with a sailmaker who knows their way around Twelve issues.  As for winning designs, you'll find all of Foolish, Numinous, Bim 3, Chapter and Big Issue 1 & 2 winning open meetings and championship races at the moment.  Each has a set of conditions in which they perform better than the others.  Many of the older designs continue to be competitive inland.
3. Those are the only people making carbon masts.  You can buy a super spar pretty much off the peg - the other two require negotiation with the makers.

MIke D
N3496

[rick perkins]

Bump ...

[DavidW]

The previous replies seem pretty accurate to me - There really isn't enough data to give you anything much more helpful on weights for each design - Often the competency or otherwise of the helm is far more telling than the design's weight carrying ability. The winning boats are using all the brands of spars and sails noted on earlier replies and in differing combinations.

Cheers

David
3481

[rick perkins]

I am think of buying a boat but there is no way I am going to buy one unless I have some confidence that I am getting the right design for our weight.

Just saying 17-23 is OK isn't very helpful - I'd hope to be competitive but given the diversity of the designs  and rigs I had hoped to find a bit of data or guidance on designs and rigs.

The starting point for joining any class is to understand the weight/equipment combinations of the top teams; are you guys trying to keep that to yourselfs?
Rick

[angus]

I am probably not the right person to answer this question as I tend to hold up the other end of the fleet but I think your are maybe looking for the wrong think. The great thing about the national 12 is that you can adapt it to suit your self. There is no right answer. If you want somthing off the shelf that is going to go straight to the top you are maybe looking at the wrong class.
The best thing I can suggest is that you get round and few open meetings and see what the fst boys are sailing and you will probably find they will be only two happy to share their screts with you.

[rick perkins]

[quote by=angus link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool,m=1156107862,s=6 date=1156923325] If you want somthing off the shelf that is going to go straight to the top you are maybe looking at the wrong class.[/quote]

Are you telling me to go and find a different class?

All I am asking is what gear are the top guys using to help me with my choice - in other classes they usually compile a gear guide after the nationals which is often published in Y&Y ... is their one of these for the N12?

Rick

[Jimbo41]

Rick,
I agree with Angus. The sailors at the National Champs last week in Porthpean were very open and willing to discuss all issues.

Another equally important issue about winning races is experience on your own stretch of water. I was talking to Paul Turner last night (who incidentally is selling N3500 Crazy Diamond - free plug for you Paul   ) about weight carrying capacity of the Big Issue 2. He surprised me by saying that it could carry weight, but what was more important to winning was strategy. He sails on rivers predominantly. So the takehome message is rather to choose a boat which suits the type of water you sail on (and crew wieght) and get your chess playing sorted out. Then you'll be up at the front in a few years. This is what I am doing.

Cheers and goood luck in your choice!

Jim N3130 (give me your boats and never accept sweets from a Plastic Fantastic)

[Antony (Guest)]

Rick,
The gear guide is in draft form on my email system.  If you email me at antonygifford@aol.com then I will be happy to send you the preview version by reply.  It will probably be with Y&Y today once we have been given clarity on a few of the crew weights!  

On the weight question that you raised the answer is that for any N12 there is a sweet spot between about 18 & 21 stone.  By using different hull shapes and rigs this can be extended a little in both directions, for example the best 'fatter' guy in the class uses a Final Chapter with a bendy mast and fuller sails to pretty good effect.  The beauty of the development class is that you can pick and mix the kit to suit you and your crew.

If you want more thoughts, or have particular boats in mind that interest you but you want to discuss, then email me and I can either respond or I will provide you with my home phone number.

Angus is wrong to suggest that there is not a winning 'off the shelf' option, as that is exactly what the P&B/Winder Foolish offers and Tom & Liz are rarely beaten in their one.

Antony
N3484 (& now Chairman of the NTOA)

[angus]

No I'm not

[John Meadowcroft]

A crew weight in excess of 21 stone has been good enough to be in the top 6 every year since 2000.  I cannot remember before....  Carbon rigs have definitely helped the heavy people in my opinion.  Rich Williams was nearly 21 stone this year and came second ,we were 21.5 stone for sixth.  We both have Final Chapters and both have a bendy Angell mast.  I have P&B sails, he has Rowsell.  The other Chapter in the top 10 was Steve & Robbie Adshead.  They also have an Angell mast and sail a little bit lighter.  To confuse things they have Alverbank sails.  My view is that the Baggy Trousers and the Numinous appear to be the most weight sensitive.  Richard and I both go fast upwind but are unsurprisingly a little vulnerable downhill!  Steve & Robbie are less so!

Kit lists are not at all secretive

For info

N3473 Nigel Waller built Final Chapter
P&B sails (kevlar main, dacron jib)
Angell Mast
Gybing centreboard and fat rudder from Nigel Waller

John

[Tim L (Guest)]

Yes, there's no secretiveness about setup in the class - just such a diverse range of boats and kit making the front of the fleet that it's pretty hard to give any definite answers. - Let us know what sort of weight and type of waters you'll be using the boat for and we'll give you a best guess...

Tim

3497 Shiny Disco Balls (for sale)
Big Issue 2
Angell Rig
Rowsell Sails
Conventional board.
9th at champs

[angus]

I see your being coy about your weight Tim

Angus
 2717 China doll
needle spar mast
sails Ma's old sheets I think
weight 14.5 stone but getting heavier
diet veggie
sorry  I forgot 5th at Scottish Champs

yeh I know there were only 5 boats.

[angus]

[quote by=angus link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool,m=1156107862,s=10 date=1156926265]No I'm not[/quote]

Just to clear up some confusion when I said this it was aimed at the suggestion that I was trying to get the instigator of the thread to look else where I was not trying to deign the existance of the PB Foolish.
hope that clears it up