Nice Ratchet & Discussion of what the members want

[RogerBrisley]

This is my third season in a twelve, second with a design 8 (1st boat a Crusader).

I am a member of Scaling Dam SC (who are hosting the Inlands this Autumn (30 sept & 1 Oct) & look forward to seeing as many of you as possible).We have 6 12's at the club, 2 of which I have not seen on the water (including my old crusader and a Baggy T).  There are the two Simpson boats which are double bottom but I have not seen much of as Mark & Emma have recently been blessed with a third crew and Ian has been working away a lot.

This leaves Phil Cossans and my self. Phil & son Joel are to be seen most weekends getting to grips with their Baggy,  they have only been sailing 2 years or so and this is their 1st boat. They attended the 70th Bash  - see latest Ratchet - and Tynemouth bailer.  I have sailed my Design 8 at Trent Valley which I enjoyed,  the Naburn Paddle, turned out wet despite being a dry day and the Tynemouth Bailer - the best sail all year so far.  

We  have a hard core of four 12 sailors who support club sailing and have encouraged others into the class,  helped no doubt by Marks success which breeds its own interest not only from the juniors but also from adults. We do also travel to opens,  last year Mark won honours in the Northerns and I qualified (13th - last!).  I believe travellers do enhance a classes status /cache at a club.  It is also good for those that do travel,  not only improving skills with more sailing than is available at most club weekends but also just the good social - Trent was a super weekend thanks to Paul,  Richard et al.  I would do more opens if i had a crew - missed 70th for want of crew.

My main problem with a 12 has been crew,  captive crew has been doing GCSE's AS's and this year A's every year we've had a 12.  A regular crew?  what's that?  It is possible to get a crew off the beach but you can get some unnerving combinations - Moi 13+st with 2metre + crew of sim weight sailing for the 3rd time! But I'd rather do that than sail my Laser.  We seem to be fixated a little by weight but as mentioned elsewhere today on the board performance is probably more to do with the steering stick operative than weight (within reason) perhaps i should be so fussy abouut wt.

Rambling again but I think I would Not support a cut in the number of opens,  and as Jane says there is something about sailing against equal opponents not just iso reaching rats...zzzzzzzz

Roger

PS need a crew for Scottish Nationals at North Berwick August Bank holiday weekend.. captive crew going to leeds festival

[Mike S (Guest)]

I'm with Tim on this. Less is more.
I think most club sailors just don't have the time, money or inclination to travel to Open Meetings, even if, in our case, they are just a few miles upstream or downstream. Personally I like doing it for the experience, chance to learn/improve and a change of sailing environment - there is only so much river you can take before longing for a bit of open water -  but I am in a minority of 1 in our club. We have a small but regular fleet of 6 boats, averaging 3 per race this year so far and maxing at 4.
I don't think there is anything that the Class could do to get the other 12 sailors at DSC to travel to OMs, so maybe we should be trying to attract more 12 sailors to clubs, to provide even better racing for the majority of the Class who turn out every week.

Mike N3274 Bassenthwaite calling

[Mikey C]

Finding crews can be quite a mission, I spent a good couple of years doing the majority (really, I reckon I must have gone to over half the opens on the fixture list one year) with no permanent crew and a different one each weekend...

All that is required is a few networking skills, the 12 handbook and the cheekiness to ask people. Believe it or not, there are people out there who like going sailing!

The one thing that builds fleets is people. There needs to be a key person who is there sailing most weeks, friendly, takes people out in their boats etc etc... Paul T is a good recent example having rescued the TVSC fleet. The problem is that it will take a concerted effort around the country by individuals to build the fleets.

Pure hard work, no easy answer.

[Jimbo41]

Mikey,

You are right, there is no quick fx solution to this problem.

I'm doing exactly that at our club near Munich. There's been quite a lot of interest when they crew with me. It's a problem of critical mass to get a fleet built up and something going though....

As good ol' Winston used to say "KBO".....

Jim N3130. - when are you all coming over??

[THG]

I think some of you have missed th epoint I was making - I AGREE I'm not advocating going off doing Opens very weekend - I have a family of 4 boys (good crew distribution weights) and an old house that still needs work on.

I also recognise there are very few Clubs in the SW that seem to have anything like a fleet and building one up is VERY dificult.  The 12 is an ideal boat at my Club - but many folks just go and buy a plastic fantastic Topper type 'family / racer'.  Three may be some that can't afford / would prefer a more tradiitonal boat and the AC is a great way to get a decent boat at a low price.  The upgrade though can be steeper (not sure if this puts folks off).

Yes I'm advocating more 'events' in the SW but we need to look at the format of these - give folks more opportunity to sail together for those that are spreadout (SW is quite large area from deepest Cornwall upto top of Glos) - so maybe having a few more 'local' events would encourage those folks out - even the 'novices' may be OK if they can get help / support from other 12s.  Starcross has done well in providing a good 12 environment - assume this is also down to having keen / supportive people as others have said.

Clearly there's no one answer but first step is to at least identify where we all are and to set up some sort of network and find out what people actually want.  I recognise this forum also will pick up the more active members - hence asking to find SW Club reps.

Kean

[Tim L (Guest)]

I understand what you're getting at Kean but I don't think it's the answer.  The big bugbear for most 'occasional' travellers is de-rigging and sorting out the boat for trailering twice in a weekend or even worse twice in one day for a one day event.  They're more likely to be prepared to drive a longer distance to a big one-off event than to go through all the hassle for multiple small (with uncertain turnouts and socials) events that are all 30mins/1hour down the road.

One of the things I learnt from Merlin sailing friends is that if an open isn't in their silver tiller series it often gets a very small turnout - people will make the effort to go to events if they're guaranteed big fleets and socials.  The 12 circuits could do with expanding the Gill series slightly (8-10 events) and rotating venues more rather than let annual 'traditional' opens drain away the numbers.  Anything that attracts less than 10 boats year in year out should be culled - or at least only held when it's selected as a Gill Series venue (going to upset people here.... )

With regards to club sailing - part of it is cyclical, the 12s appeal to many parent/child crews so fleets are often transient as kids grow too big and parents move on to other classes.  Salcombe was big 7-8 years ago, then Saltash and Bristol, then Starcross.  In each case the kids have outgrown crewing or gone off to uni so the fleets disappear.  The other side of things is visibility - not so much hard work as there simply being 1 or 2 good sailors who can fly the flag at the front of the club fleet (showing that the class is competitive on handicap) and who have the time to chat and encourage new owners.  This an area where the class always falls down  - as has been mentioned above most of the good sailors keep boats at home and rarely club sail so your prospective boat buyer may not even know that the class exist at their club...

Tim

[David G (Guest)]

The other issue is whether the problem is not with the National 12's but more to do with club racing.  I can think of halcyon days when club racing in many classes was very strong.  I have a personal theory that the worse the venue the stronger the club and ergo class racing was.

When the big open water clubs came along such as Queen Mary and Datchet, they drew away some of the better sailors and attracted new ones, however none of these offered the tight racing and atmosphere or a smaller venue, such as Henley or in my case Aldenham.

I am also unconvinced that the current youth structure successfully feeds youngsters into our class or any other non-international classes.  Lets face it most of our youth (of not all) are second generation 12 sailors and this is also the case with Merlins.

So in my view, if you want to address this issue, not only do you need to turn around the trends in 12's but also in the club racing scene.

I have absolutely no doubt that the key is an enthusiastic class captain and a nucleus of keen sailors.

There is no doubt that easy come easy go applies in this case.  Tim has rightly identified the key problems of getting and keeping a class going at any club, and unless the club is steeped with 12 connections and several generations of 12 sailors, such as RHYC or TVSC it will be hard to keep going without people to keep any momentum going.

A couple of years ago I got involved in an RYA National Class/Club Racing initiative, the idea was to get behind classes that met some pre-defined quality criterea and promote them in the same manner as the RYA Youth Classes, this in fact was the quid pro quo that has got us voting on the ERS/ISAF rules format.  A lot of active dinghy sailors put a lot of work into coming up with a framework that would have been good for clubs, class racing and sailors.  Unfortunately the whole scheme got kicked into touch by the RYA Council, apparently due to pressure from the Youth Classes which might have failed to meet our criterea.

David
3461

[Jane Wade]

I think you have really hit the nail on the head!  The RYA / Youth Structure is totally unsupportive of classes such as ours.

I spent my 'formative' 12 sailing years at Up River - which in its heyday had probably up to 20 active boats - one of the worse places to sail in the country! Did we care, no because there were plenty of us so the racing was really good.

So far the discussion seems to be pointing to:
Encourage our own children into the fleet (along with their friends!)
Sail at our clubs a lot more!
Build the Gill series.

Jane

Very nervous about Burton Week having hardly sailed at all in two years and bringing novice helm with me!!!!  

[jon paton (Guest)]

I think club sailing is the key to promoting the class.  The best way to advertise a class as beuatiful as the National is to see it sailing on the water at your local club.  That is what prompted me to join/try and join the class! When I get a 12 eventually it will make 2 at the club which hopefully might make people consider the boat when making their decision. seeing boats regularly on the water avoids the questions like 'what is that baot with an 'N' on the sail?'

If the open season started with friendly local meetings aimed at trying to get novice/non open meeting sailors involved and then moved on to the gill series maybe you might draw out a few more as they realise d that it is not all about winning etc   (or is it?) Ii think that local friendly racing might  work well.  Even if it is just informal invitations to sailors at local clubs.  

Jon

[Tim L (Guest)]

"The RYA / Youth Structure is totally unsupportive of classes such as ours." - I thinks its worse than that, it's unsupportive of pretty much all non-youth club and class activity period.  Maybe good for producing gold medallists but not good for getting people into the sport for longterm enjoyment.

Jon - I think 'informal invitations' are a great idea but 1) its something you don't need the class to organise and 2) its more difficult than it may seem:  I tried to run informal training at Starcross on quite a number of winter weekends but it usually failed to attract any of the club 12s (so they weren't even having to trail their boats anywhere) though quite a few 400s and Lasers would turn out...

If anything the big events are less about winning than the small ones - you're more likely to find somebody else of a similar level to yourself to have some good racing against.  The small events often just fall into a regular pecking order relating to sailing ability that just repeats in each race - not really much fun...I can never understand the 'I'm not good enough to go to a big open' mentality, you only learn by going and getting stuck in.  And you'll probably learn a lot faster and have a lot more fun

Tim

[jon paton (Guest)]

It is easy to say that when you have done them before. But you are trying to get the non travellers travelling and for those that have never done an open meeting before an informal trip to another club is a lot less daunting. At least it would be for me.  I would sooner travel 20mins down the road to find I am crap than travel 4 hours to devon to find the same thing!!  

I do agree in principal though that you are more likely to get someone with a similar boat and ability at a bigger meet.  For people coming from other fleets though they  will not realise this until they have tried it. viscous circle  ??)

Take for example a standard club, maybe 2 nationals out each week. you organise an informal meeting say invite 2 other local clubs and get another 4 boats turn up.  You have 6 nationals out at your local pond maybe organise an extra race to make it worth there while coming, and have a bbq after and a few drinks afterwards.  ( all very idealistic i know but bare with me!)  Surely people at your club are going to want to join in that kind of thing and can convert those enterprise sailors into N12 sailors?!

Enough dribble from me,
Jon

[Tim L (Guest)]

Again Jon it's a wonderful idea and if you can make it work then you should write a ratchet article about it! - I spent 3 years sailing on ponds in Birmingham and my abiding memory of that is how set-in-their-ways most of the club 12s were.  They certainly wouldn't consider travelling to an event even 6 miles down the road, despite repeated attempts in encouraging them.  I think the informal idea perhaps only works if you already know the other crews very well and it's more of a get together of friends - it's often the open circuit regulars who know people from other clubs well enough for this to happen.

'It is easy to say that when you have done them before' - Yeah, but we all had to start somewhere - I started off crewing for my girlfriend at the time and she thought I was cruel making her go to Bristol, Salcombe and Burton Week as when we got there we knew so little that we often finished a leg behind the next boat (if we finished at all...) and fell in on virtually every gybe!  However we made some good friends with other sailors struggling round at the back which made it worthwhile and found that when we went back to club sailing we were learning faster than just staying at home.  The bug bit for both of us both in competition and in being involved in the class life.  

The reality is that learning to sail a 12 (or any boat) well takes a fair bit of hard work and the big step between club and open level has a lot more to do with practice (i.e. being prepared to get it wrong and look silly ) than with any equipment advantages (plenty of slowly sailed double bottoms around...) despite what many people like to believe.  

If you invited the same boats from local clubs along to a big event (and there'll be at least 1 within an hours drive of where you live throuh the season) you could share the logistics and accomodation and you'll have more people on the same level to sail against while being involved in a much bigger social and more opportunity to learn as a group - more fun for everyone?

Tim

[THG]

It seems to me that much of the growth in the Class currently is from people with a similarish background to me - and this is reflected in the demand for recent ACs.  These are the folks that we need to support and encourage to become active.  The ACs although make up the largest numbers account for around 4-5% of the Gill turnouts (exception 70th).  Although there are special AC prizes maybe wer'e still not hitting the mark with what is needed.  The 70th event seems to show people will be willing to travel and as commented before maybe we need an annual N12 'rally' to get folks together.  realistically growth is not going to come from yoof sailing - but once the yoofs mature they may want something else.  One issue though is how to persuade 'returners' to get a 12 vs say an RS or Topper type 'low maintenance' has 'sporty' extras.  We are somewhat of a niche but if all us niches sailed there would be lots of Ns around.

Current conclusion currently seems to be maybe a couple more Gill events - can these be held at 'traditional' locations (such as Trent) so the ACs will feel less handicapped.  At the local / Regional level possibly add more events (but each area needs to determine what it can support) - these don't have to be traditional Open type format.  If we can get a few more folks hooked on the 12 through the low cost AC route then hopefully they will develop and possibly aspire to the DB (not that there's anything wrong with an AC (except bailing)).

We can keep discussing or get out there find the people / Clubs and start to find out what they actually want out of their Association.

Are we doing enough still to promote the Class - almost weekly now the Fireflys are touting their 100+ at the Nationals - why aren't we??  The Firefly sailor may also be in a similat situation as the 12s - how come they 'seem' to be doing better (all subjective!).

Kean

[Antony (Guest)]

I am just off for a week of research on some of these subjects.  Do not worry, the committee do read these postings and are very aware of the issues and very welcoming of new ideas.  

For what it is worth it seems to me that the main issues can be boiled down to:

1.  Not enough clubs with enough 12s active to fleet race.
2.  A widened division between the class of DB boats that live in garages and go to opens and BW, and the class of 'classics' that club race on handicap.  This is especially important given the historical progression that we all made from old and uncompetitive boats into newer models as we improved, aged and got richer.  It is also important because what the NTOA can do might not suit both the consituents of the membership.
3.  There was a 3 but I have forgotton it, probably the point that Mike Day made about how we all sail less.  I think that ageing is an issue here too, in that I and most of my 12 saililng mates were certainly more likely to sail 12s every weekend when we were younger and had less ties (I mean children).

I am looking forward to Burton Wk, but do not anticipate spending a lot of time at the AGM on these issues as I do not think that there is necessarily enough of a cross-section of the class present.  I will obviously be happy to discuss anything and everything to do with the class at the bar with a pint.

Antony
N3484 (oh and Chairman of the NTOA if I get elected)

[Simon Nelson (Guest)]

I think Anthony has hit the nail on the head but I would expand on it a little more.

There is a good reason those who do opens keep their boats at home rather than at a club. Convinience. And the reason they don't club sail. Inconvinience! The chore of unpacking and packing up is bad enough for a weekend of sailing but for a morning or maybe, at best, a day of club sailing and it really takes too much of the fun out of it.

However, I remember when I did the circuit that I was also a member of various different clubs so that when there wasn't much on, I could go sailing. This was not to fill in the odd weekend but more like Autumn, winter and spring series. I did those at Aldenham, Up River and RHYC. Why did I bother. Because sailing is like a drug. The more you do the more you want. Therefore, I believe that to attract the open meeting boys and girls into club sailing you need a stronger open circuit.

If you are used to sailing 3 weekends a month and then don't sail for a month, you get really edgy! Ginette used to kick me out of the house and force me to go off sailing somewhere. Now I am out of the habit.

And, IMO, it works well. If hot shots in new boats were always at the club, people with "classics" would get fed up. However, occasional or seasonal appearances from the hot shots enhances the racing and people do not get upset at being beaten by what they might believe is a better boat.


I guess what I am saying is that a strong open meeting circuit and a strong club scene are not mutually exclusive and both need to be developed