Nationals

[Mikey C]

As long as it isnt rocket science hey Mr iiles....

I think the light wind thing is one of those nice myths fired around from time to time. I got soundly beaten by a well sailed 200 on Boxing Day at Nottingham, and it wasnt using its spinnaker! Its not something I admit to, but if a big roached fully battened sailed boat can go faster than my 'river boat' (in the broadest sense of the word, Edward is anything but...) in a light airs roll tacking race, then I'm all for it...

Thing is we all look at a skiff's poor light airs performance and say it must be rubbish, whereas it is actually the whole skiff package that is a bit pants in light airs, not just the rig.

Pros - longer sail life, less noisy and offputting for the kids, less silly creases from sticking silly area in silly places, more attractive looking rig (SELLING PONT = MORE PEEPS INTERESTED),

Cons - possible expense, but as a Moth mainsail is cheaper by a long shot, and not much smaller I doubt it...

Can someone who knows how, measure the actual area of one of our sets of sails (inc 'unmeasured') and tell us what it really is. We then say that is our sail area, we must have two sails, and they must stay within the rig height rule, and not extend over the transom/bow, allow three battens, in any arrangement, I will shut up and go sailing, all is peachy!

Mikey C

PS - I was the last person to sail with the Alverbank fully battened sail - it was fine, although it was made to fit existing cross width measurements, so defeated the object - I had no problems sailing with it on the river at Nottingham at the time.

[Ben Brown (Guest)]

Does the Solo not have a fully battened main? Searching my 12 sailing memory they were'nt that easy to shake off in the light stuff on puddles.
Not sure how much a fully battened main for a twelve would be but it might be worth getting an estimate to compare with soft sails. Comparing RS200 sails may not be that conclusive, for all we know they might be made in China by children . Same goes for Ka moth sails!  

What about battens in the jib too they will last longer too. And they're easier to role up.

Ben B  

[Tim L (Guest)]

[quote by=tim knight (Guest) link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool,m=1114709070,s=50 date=1116232073]
Personal stuff
Unless im not mistaken I did not count 70 boats at Burton week 'Mr L'

I also only referred to 12s in my writing as modern 'Mr L' and did not make derogatory remarks.

Please check your facts before making caustic comments. I own and sail both a 12 and a Tasar. I feel able to add to a conversation about rotating rigs based on real experience not personal bias.

[/quote]

Tim,

curse of long term memory.... I'm pretty sure you referred to 12 rigs being 'old fashioned' in your first bit in ratchet a few years back.

Y&Y would seem to vouch for my facts being correct on Nationals turnouts, worlds are a different kettle of fish both in numbers  and the fleet ability to survive bad weather...

Your insight is appreciated, however I think almost everyone in the fleet has discussed  comparisons of 12s and Tasars with you at some point and we're well versed in your views ( I'm counting three times in under two years!!)  Good fun, but some more technical insight into your experience with rotating rigs and fully battened sails would be good...?

Tim  

[JimC (Guest)]

I rather think the only thing that needs saying about tall fully battened rigs, rivers and light airs is this picture.



See http://www.thamessailingclub.org.uk/ for more about the A Raters, surely the definitive river & light airs boat!

[JonThompson]

So I gather rotating masts are out, but every one is talking now about fully battened rigs - fine...But maybe we should try two top full battens first, with three quarter battens lower down.... and see how we get on, if they work, fine, lets  try full length battens throught out later.  But I still think rotating masts would be fun  As for however suggested a kicking strap cover ala 29er/49er  (I cann't be bothered looking back to find who this was!!!) try crewing a double bottom twelve in light airs and you will know the reason we don't have one...

[John Meadowcroft]

Disagree with the rater comment.  Come down to Upper Thames Sailing Club and watch them tack.  They have to give the rig a right seeing to so that the battens to pop through on a tack.  Fortunately they are heavy enough that you are able to put this amount of energy into the rig without cheating.  I have sailed one.  They are very nice.  They are not National 12s.

I was asked to propose the sort of change which I think could be good.

Rule 11.3.6 shows the current allowed heights as

1/4 height 3F/4 + 470mm
1/2 height F/2 + 565mm
3/4 height F/4 + 530mm

Very simply my proposal would be to reallocate some of the mm from the 1/4 height to the 3/4 height.  There is probably a mathematical rule that says by shortening the bottom one you need to add more at the top to maintain the same overall area.

To keep is simple, lets assume that 150mm at the 1/4 height is worth 300mm at the 3/4 height.  The proposal would be

1/4 height 3F/4 + 320mm
1/2 height F/2 + 565mm
3/4 height F/4 + 830mm

Caveats

1 - I have no idea if this is the magnitude of the problem that can be seen on the mainsail. ie the problem may not be as large as 150mm, it may be more.
2 - I do know as a measurer that few sails are built out to the maximum 1/4 height allowed anyway
3 - I have assumed that the 1/2 height stays the same and the area pivots around it.  If a large chunk is taken of the 1/4 height we may need to move the 1/2 height or we will just get the same problem somewhere else.
4 - will a larger 3/4 height require a 4th batten?

Proposal

Dont change the rule now, but have a look instead.  I feel the 4th batten could be genuinely speed enhancing as the rest is just a reallocation of area.

I am not intending to submit anything to the AGM as I am not sailing enough to justify this.  I do think a change of this ilk would be good if the sailmakers were supportive and they essentially constructed the rule.

John Meadowcroft
N3473