Nationals

[EmmaW]

Antony, I am not doubting your argument in any way, but as I am not as technically minded as some please could you explain why a rotating rig would be unsuitable at Salcombe? I understand the benefits now, but would like to understand the downside...

Thanks

PS...wish I hadn't spent the whole weekend at my computer but unfortunately the typical student lifestyle is put into question at this time of year!  :-/

[Terry Cooke (Guest)]

Ok so I am now totally confused, having spent ages trying to work out why a rotating rig would provide any real benifit to a twelve other than to keep us all amused trying I now need to work out what is so unique about Salcombe to make it less suitable for a interesting rig than Trent Valley

[Mikey C]

For those that may have no clue what Terry is on about, there was a load of experiments with 12's with big (Fireball) rigs at Trent Valley in the 80's by Mr Peebles amongst others...

I have the pictures somewhere - will put them in Ratchet if people are interested

Its funny Antony, I was thinking exactly the same thing the other night but the other way around! Frankly were are running out of things to try in the 12's and resorting to increasingly outlandish attempts to do different things, and while I see that hull and foil design is still to be worked on, the rigs havent done anything but get lighter since the 70's and look particularly old fashioned. I feel something needs to be done to keep interest levels up to stop other people drifting out of the class - I also feel that modernising the rig will make it a more attractive to outsiders which is where the 12s are particularly weak.


Cheers

Mike

PS - one way or the other, the 12's need good secondhand boats!
 

[JImc (Guest)]

As the owner of the only Bethwaite wing mast in the Northern hemisphere (Tasars excepted) on the vintage Cherub some of you might have seen at sailboat a few years back maybe I have something to offer.

1) When you get it right its an awsome bit of kit, especially in lighter conditions. You can really feel the power kick in
2) It makes for a tweaky rig
3) Number of sailmakers world wide who know who to cut a sail for one probably one
4) Not reallymuch like a tornado rig at all!
5) If you're going to get all radical and change the mast rotation rule it probably makes sense to freeup the rest of the rules and just measure area. This meansall existing rigs are throwaways. If you do change just the mast and not the rest then there'll be pressure to free up the other rules soon.
6) Have you really got a problem that this will address? I get very excited about low drag highly efficient full battened rigs with wing masts, but judging by the way many popular SMODS have less efficient but easier to use semi soft rigs I'm a tiny minority. I reallly see few sailors who are interested in developing rigs at all, and those that are mostly seem to think the more rag the better and just want to put big rags on, which is scarcely the N12 ethos.

On how it works:-
1) Overrotating masts bend differently, you get really good twist control
2)  lower drag with a thinner mast
3) better airflow over the sail with much less mast interference
4) more control on sail shape
5) mast acts as extra sail area (but you'd probably measure it in with the sail)

Incidentally on a related topic, Bethwaite makes someinteresting claims about the "mast cuff": the bit that covers kicker area on 29er etc. He claims that this makes the bottom of the jib much more efficient, which of course gives extra power with very little heeling moment. There's stuff aboutthis on the Tasar Yahoo group. If its legal to make a N12 main with that sort of downward extension it could be something for those interested in rigs to explore without the sort of complictaions of a rule change.

[Ben B Still NTOA Member.. (Guest)]

[Mikey C]

No, its definitely a Big Issue - I remember sending Phil the cheque!

[tedcordall]

[EmmaW]

It wouldn't kill the class to allow a dispensation to try it...then we really would know what the pros and cons would be instead of merely speculating.

I still don't understand why some venues are better suited than others...please, someone, explain

[david g (Guest)]

Ted,

Fear not, it is a tradition in the class that every year in the run up to the forms for the agm being sent out  there is a spate of navel gazing, at which point a whole range of often revisited items such as reducing weight, d*****boards, fully battened rigs get flown in Ratchet or on this board.

This is good and is what sets us apart from the one design classes.  Even if we do not adopt the changes, it means that there are sailors trying to push the envelope and explore what makes a dinghy faster.  This is how former National 12 sailors like Phil Morrison and Jo Richards learnt their craft.

Occassionally something gets proposed that is of real value and has been passed through, moving on from clinker hulls and cotton sails spring to mind (though some may disagree!).

However you can sleep safely in the knowledge that it has to be a very good idea for enough people at an AGM to accept change, they, like you wish to protect their investment.

However this doesn't mean that a bit of chat about rotating rigs won't get us thinking about how to improve the flow around the mast, already Cherub man has suggested that we should try to improve flow around the kicking strap, which migh be worth exploring.

Finally, I don't think that the suggestion is to adopt full on deep chorded wing masts, I would think that the chord length would be limited allowing existing masts to be converted in order to rotate (I guess that the spreaders would be converted to diamonds).

Regards,

David
N3461

[Mikey C]

I think my main problem is that the 12's have no development path laid out - I remember finding a copy of an old one in my old mans chairman era stuff - it had ideas for future possibilities and timescales.

At the moment we seem to get shot at for even suggesting any movement forwards. The rule changes of a few years back hit too many people, too hard, and all at once and it has apparently scared a lot of people off of future change.
We need to make sure that when the next ideas for change come in, they are not so late as to make them drastic in a big catching up measure like the last one.

I am planning on making a new boat towards the end of the year, and propose almost making a concept 12 as a testbed for any future changes - that way people might actually get to sail with/use the ideas before putting verdicts in.
The problem is, what are they going to be if any or am i wasting my time?

Cheers

Mike

[Antony (Guest)]

Ben,
You make a valid point and remember our conversation pretty well.   There are, however, very important differences between the changes that get implemented and/or discussed by the class.  This is why my views are different on these two issues.

1.  Changes that keep the boats 'current' without changing the character of the boat or altering the niche in which the class fits.  Our boats are far more 'modern' than RS200s a very few years after that class was invented.

2.  Changes that 'change' the class into something different.

It is my view that double-bottoms and lower weight fit into 1. and that spinnakers and rotating masts fit into 2.  I know that others will disagree with me about this view.

Mike, the biggest issue with a 'plan' has always been the problem that in advance of any change there is a freeze on new boat building, something that has hurt the class in the past.  I agree with you to the extent that the committee should continue to review such things (I am sure that they do), but any changes should be voted on in that year and not be part of a grand longer-term plan.

Ultimately the class will be more fun for all if there are more strong club fleets, and lots of competitive second-hand boats being sold to enable people to get to the front of the fleet more cheaply.  Building new boats in a stable rules environment is probably the main way that we can all influence this.  Merlins and even Larks seem to be thriving with rather dated looks.

Antony

[JimC (Guest)]

[quote by=Mikey_C link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool,m=1114709070,s=24 date=1115377936]I think my main problem is that the 12's have no development path laid out - I remember finding a copy of an old one in my old mans chairman era stuff - it had ideas for future possibilities and timescales. [/quote]

Don't you think though that changing rules is the opposite of development? The process of development within a restricted class boat is that one is seeking to get the optimum racing boat within the box defined by the rules. As soon as you change the box though then basically the process starts again and you have to an extent (depending on how major the change is) thrown away pevious development and have to start afresh.

[Kevin]

Although I confess that I am not in favour of rotating masts as they seem likely to unecessarily increase the cost of a new boat, I (like Emma) still do not understand why some venues are better suited to them than others. PLEASE WILL SOMEONE EXPLAIN?

In my opinion, rule changes should be considered (a) when current boats have overtaken the rules, e.g. all new boats of "standard" (not exotic) construction are coming out significantly under weight then look at a weight reduction; (b) to simplify unnecessarily complicated rules that add to the cost of construction through either increased time required to build or increased cost of materials  to comply with the rules; or (c) to reflect a change in the generally accepted standards of construction, e.g. introduction of metal masts.

I accept that there are grey areas at some point in time with all of the above, but we should continue to foster the concept of maintaining development through evolution, not revolution.

I look forward to seeing the explanation requested above.

Kevin

[John Meadowcroft]

EXPLANATION

Katy and I sailed an NS14 when we were in Australia.  Essential characteristics were 14ft long, 2 sails, daggerboard, fully battened main on rotating rig.  The rig was an overrotating rig, with an aerofoil section.

What is the problem with the rig?

The rig is excellent when you dont have to fiddle with it.  Every time you have to tack (eg short tacking up the bank at Salcombe) you have to physically tack the mast (it has a handle on it).  This did not make the crew happy as too little/too much leach tension caused problems.  A bit like a very dodgy top batten.

If your crew is big enough no problem.

This is my view - hope it helps - there may no doubt be others.

[JonThompson]

Now,
What a hornets nest has been opened up.....The Blaze fleet ae consideing rotating masts..to encourage more members..Maybee the 12 fleet should try the same.  As I Have sailed boats with a rotating mast, maybe you should try it first.before commenting..........