Burton Wk

[vince (Guest)]

Re a shorter course in the Burton for the old boats, I personally am ambivalent: irrespective of position, finishing the full Burton is quite satisfying in itself, like the sailing equivalent of skiing a good long black run from the top to the bottom of the mountain, even if your 14 year old son gets down ages ahead of you! However I think the International 14s did just that for a while, i.e. requiring fewer laps for for vintage and pre 1980s boats in the Prince of Wales cup, to encourage a range  of entries, and I am fairly sure the PoW rules race length requirements are similar to the Burton Cup, so it could be done. After all it's unlikely a vintage boat is going to win it, so the deed of gift will never be relevant.
Re possible future locations further up the east coast and speaking of PoW, the 14s held the Prince of Wales Cup very successfully at Hunstanton on the Wash several times in the 50s and 60s. Hunstanton SC have held a number of championship events in recent years. Yes, the tides are important there, but it can be great sailing and generally it's not far to the start area.
Felixstowe Ferry SC is a seriously good club at running large championship events (Larks, Fireflies etc) and is a reasonably central location.
Further north from The Wash the options are very limited: you really only have Filey, the RYYC at Bridlington and Tynemouth, and to be honest the dear old North Sea north of the Wash never really warms up!
Vince
N3395, N2531, N2430

[GC]

Hi Rich.
Phone no is in the book, or get email address via george via Nick?
Accomodation booked at Brightlingsea, with crew sorted for Angus.
Should be a great event with camping almost as close as Herne Bay and a very well organized and run club.
Gerald

[Will Mitchell]

Vince, thanks for sharing your views on sailing in the North Sea. It's exactly this kind of narrow minded biggoted response that perpetuates the north south divide amongst sailors. There are many venues that are actually in the north (which let me assure you, both Hunstanton and Felixstowe clearly are not) that are both suitable and capable of hosting major championships of fleets of 70-100 or even more boats. North Berwick has just hosted the solo national championship. There were nearly 80 boats. In 2002/3 the fireball  worlds were hosted in Shetland, again over 70 boats. Sunderland hosted the topper nationals in 2003 that's well over 100 boats. Your views do nothing to help improve the numbers of boats attending burton week and other such champs as they only serve to condem sailing in the north. I challenge you to find a better race area anywhere in the country that's not one sided depending on the tide, accessible at all states of tide. Launchable at all states of tide like Sunderland is. And it's not the only venue by any stretch of the imagination. The North Sea is the North Sea no matter whereabouts you strand personally, I'd much rather launch my boat off a sandy beach than a shingle one. But that's just my preference. Lois and I travelled from Sunderland to pevensey last year and Lois had work on the weds morning which meant a c long drive back. Where is the continued incentive in your comments that encourage the continued attendance of sailors in the north if individuals like yourself see fit to not only dictate but also "do down" the chances of us ever having the chance to attend a burton week that actually doesn't involve a 6-8 hour drive to the south. I welcome the views from other northern sailors on this topic.

[vince (Guest)]

Will, I really don't think this forum is the place for such intemperate and innapropriate language. Living in York, I actually am a northern 12 sailor and was commenting from that perspective in response to Paul's query, which came from a midlands perspective. I was also trying to give a realistic opinion about the geographical distribution of 12s as can be seen from the handbook and where we might be most likely to be able attract good numbers. 
Let's not use hotile language about simple expressions of opinion on here; that's not what 12 sailing is about.

[Will Mitchell]

Hi Vince, I'm please that you've replied. I apologise if  you find my remarks offensive. But as a northern 12 sailor yourself, I find your earlier comments both surprising and disappointing. I would have thought that you would be banging the drum for a northern venue. We recently held the ANYEC trophy at Sunderland which was very successful with 11 boats attending. That's One third of the Burton week fleet by number. There are several of us up here in the north that are working very hard to improve the turnout of boats at our events, and we need all of the promotion and representation that we can get. Surely this can only be a good thing. As for What 12 sailing is all about ? I have a very simple outlook that regardless of what class one happens to be sailing in. racing is racing, and developing a maximum championship attendance from a national fleet requires that your nationals circumnavigate the whole country and visit many venues that are far flung from the regular south and East Coast haunts. I have always travelled far and wide to venues to go sailing. But there is no good reason that I can see why the north could not host a a Burton week in the future. Abersoch, phwelli Sunderland Dalgety bay Filey, Brid North Berwick etc etc. you live up here so I'm certain you know from first hand expense. The most important thing is delivering the quality of racing that the fleet ( the whole fleet) expects. Once again. My sincere apologies if I have in any way offended you as that was not my intention. I would very much like to hear the views of the other 12 sailors that are north of the midlands and our Scottish friends too. We can only develop and swell our ranks if we communicate openly and with transparency.I invite contributions anyone may wish to put forward.

[angus]

I think it is very easy to come up with throw away comments regarding where Burton should be held. What is clear is that the present powers have no intention rightly or wrongly to hold a Burton north of Essex anytime in the future. Any arguement to hold a Burton in the North must be based on fact and sensible research and not on idividual hurriedly made comments whether narrow and biggoted or not.
I would say I was surprised how warm the sea was at herne bay, but if we were to selcet on sea temperature.......
Also I would suggest that the greatest factor in the North South divide is the M1 after my experience on Friday!

[smilie]

It’s raining so thought I would stick my oar in, I’m wondering if a good compromise might to hold the inland champs north of Watford gap? And then if Burton WK is held north then the inlands could be held in the south.
I ‘spose the big questions and possible elephant in the room are the 12’s finding harder to book champs venues with a reduced fleet? Also has anyone one got a real handle on the spread of the 12 fleet these days (maybe another thread for people to give the number of 12’s sailing at their club is order?) I have feeling that most the new boats are in the south east and with older boats sailing in the midlands up.
 
Anyways those are my thoughts.

[3513SL]

Photos from the Burton Cup Day now online,
 
http://www.championmarinephotography.co.uk/galleries/Burton%20Cup%202015/index.htm
 
A few great ones of my battle with my old helm in 3291!

[John M (Guest)]

It would be great to a hold a Burton Week on the North Sea again.  As I told Oliver last week the North Kent coast is the southern edge of the North Sea.  Organising a Championships is not easy.  What is particularly important is gaining a strong relationship with the Club involved.  The Class also needs to plan a few years out.  Today's Committee organises a championships venue for a future Committee to deliver on.  12 months ago we were let down by Felixstowe Ferry SC (one of the clubs recommended in this thread) whom we believed we had agreed would host the class this year.  We had to find a venue at short notice and Herne Bay SC were excellent.
There is no agenda vis a vis not going to the North of England / Scotland as far as I am aware of. 
What we need is more than recommendations of venues but actually a really good introduction to the key people.  Otherwise it is existing relationships which will get worked.  Interesting Felixstowe would have been a new venue so to some extent we had gone out on a limb in selecting it.  As I said, it is not easy... 
So venue suggestions are great, but decent introductions to clubs who really want the 12s to come are worth a lot more.  Send info to the Chairman or the Hon Secretary....
And the place I would like to go to is Filey...
John

[Will Mitchell]

Great contribution John, I think that an online discussion is the best way to solicit the views of the national fleet (although I accept that's only my opinion) as many of us may not always be able to attend Burton week, and as such, the AGM. This was the case for us this year as it clashed with our family holiday. I'm certain that there will be many 12's that are still being actively club sailed around the country that don't attend open meetings. And finding out why not and then trying to meet their needs so as to see them return to the open meetings and champs circuit must surely be as valuable as recruiting new blood into the class. I take your point about the need for solid contacts and commitment from different clubs. But in my opinion, most clubs in the north would be only too happy to host a nationals as it helps them to maintain or even to raise their own profile. Sunderland (again I accept my bias) is one such club that has a very small active dinghy fleet. But as club it's capable of hosting very big championships. I'm certain that this is true for the other coastal clubs too. For instance. I'd love to go 12 racing at Abersoch... 
I'll take it on to collate a list of solid contacts and potential introductions to the northern clubs on the east coast and then forward that on to the chairman. Maybe other members could get together and do the same for their region. 
I'd to be at an AGM that's spoilt for choice when voting on a venue. But that's just my thoughts on the subject.
will

[Chadders]

Good to discuss. Not so good to fall out or sling insults chaps, you asked for other views so a few from my perspective with a fifty year old vintage boat which has been refurbished twice and a body 18 years older than that with dodgy joints and no refurbishments yet.  Northern based and on the committee!
Herne Bay/recent champs-  every report I have heard or read was positive so a big well done to all especially Tom Stewart not only for his brilliant results but for being the driving force in re organising the champs to Herne Bay at short notice after Felixstowe let us down! 
Northern Venue-  your committee has discussed Northern venues this year and we are not ignored but champs are normally booked well in advance ( up to 4 years in advance).  I am sure that we would be happy to have any contacts and to explore options for a Northern Venue.  I did go to the Sunderland venue and it would be a great location as would Filey or perhaps Bridlington so any contacts gratefully received Will.  It will be interesting to see how many make the journey to the Scottish Champs in Kipford.
Vintage Burton Race-   I like the idea of allowing vintage boats to sail a shorter Burton Cup Race but agree it is satisfying to complete the race as it is intended and Tom always waves as he passes us on his last beat and our third beat!
Perhaps a survey of members is required again especially those who have attended Burtons during the last say five years and why have those who no longer come stopped having dropped from 70 at Thorpe Bay to around 30 this year.
All for now from me and I confess my stopping after the Hayling Burton is age related more than anything.  Howard C. n2266 + others

[Chadders]

Good to discuss. Not so good to fall out or sling insults chaps, you asked for other views so a few from my perspective with a fifty year old vintage boat which has been refurbished twice and a body 18 years older than that with dodgy joints and no refurbishments yet.  Northern based and on the committee!
Herne Bay/recent champs-  every report I have heard or read was positive so a big well done to all especially Tom Stewart not only for his brilliant results but for being the driving force in re organising the champs to Herne Bay at short notice after Felixstowe let us down! 
Northern Venue-  your committee has discussed Northern venues this year and we are not ignored but champs are normally booked well in advance ( up to 4 years in advance).  I am sure that we would be happy to have any contacts and to explore options for a Northern Venue.  I did go to the Sunderland venue and it would be a great location as would Filey or perhaps Bridlington so any contacts gratefully received Will.  It will be interesting to see how many make the journey to the Scottish Champs in Kipford.
Vintage Burton Race-   I like the idea of allowing vintage boats to sail a shorter Burton Cup Race but agree it is satisfying to complete the race as it is intended and Tom always waves as he passes us on his last beat and our third beat!
Perhaps a survey of members is required again especially those who have attended Burtons during the last say five years and why have those who no longer come stopped having dropped from 70 at Thorpe Bay to around 30 this year.
All for now from me and I confess my stopping after the Hayling Burton is age related more than anything.  Howard C. n2266 + others

[simon moss]

I would echo Howard's sentiment. 
I do sail in the North and did have the absolute pleasure of swimming twice at Sunderland with an 8 yr old up front with no ill effects from the chilly North sea! (We both also surf the North Sea all year round) another venue that springs to mind for consideration might be Runswick bay SC, gorgeous location. 
I guess the only way to have a Northern a Burton would be assess if by doing so it would increase the number of entries other wise it would seem to be a non starter. 
 
Just thinking out loud.

[Will Mitchell]

Great comments Chadders all very constructive and very valid, it's great to hear that these things are being discussed at a higher level and to know that there is good representation for all regions . I think that Tom and the committee deserve a medal for delivering a championship after being let down by the pre arranged host club. Thanks too to John M for sharing that information to a wider audience, as I'm sure I won't be the only one that was unaware of those facts.  I agree with you that a survey  is probably the best way to go, although I'm surprised at how much discussion is already taking place on the subject. So maybe this forum is the way to go ??

[edwillett]

Some observations from the far north....
I was generally under the impression that the largest numbers of active 12's were in the south and accordingly that was why the Champs had become rather south coast centric over the years. That however doesnt seem to gel with the large turnouts at Ripon in recent years.....
However with only ~30 boats turning up to Herne Bay can the Class afford to take the risk of a northern venue and have less people turn out.....or would it actually encourage a higher attendance? Perhaps a census of where the most active clubs/boats are located would help? And a new survey to assess peoples current views on the champs format, location etc?
My last champs was in 1992..since then work, kids and travel got in the way....that said with kids (almost) grown up there has been idle chat in Cramond dinghy park about a return to the 80th Burton Week next year....
However in the last couple of years there seems to have been less people travelling.....Castle Semple was only supported by Scottish boats last year and cancelled this year and Cramond saw no visitors at all this year, although thankfully with five 12's in the dinghy park it was viable! I will be interested to see what support we get at Solway. Have austerity measures impacted on peoples desire and ability to travel? 
I personally have deliberately focussed more on club racing in the last couple of years to and raise the profile of the Class at home and to try and entice more people into trying a 12....and whilst a slow process it does seem to be working...we just had a great weekend of sailing with our club cadets as crews, with other adults now also asking if they can try one. 
But I'm now meandering off topic....