National 12 Rule changes debate

[RichardB2]

As a relative newbie to the N12 class having, believe it or not, come from sailing merlins on and off for 20+ years, the Merlins went through a tough time in the early 2000's, with stagnating designs and weird ideas but what revived the class to that of one which is now very healthy, is a strong 2nd hand market and sensible decisions being made by the committee to shut down splinter groups that wanted winged rudders, smooth hulls etc,etc. Whilst the Merlin is a restricted developemnt class and innovation is encouraged, boats of all ages remain competitive providing excellent racing across a wide range of designs . I am no expert in the N12 class but if you do not start to police what is good or bad for the class then you will end up very quickly like the I14 which has become 'cheque book' sailing for the elite!!
I love the 12 and Merlin, always have done, but if you are not careful the back bone of the class (mid fleet sailor) will migrate to a class where they can enjoy competitve sailing on a level playing field. 

[John m]

This is clearly a tricky problem and I won't pretend to have an easy answer.  However...
Why would you ask the association membership about foiling rudders making the boat more appealing?  Surely that is a question to be asked of those who don't have a 12 - they are the majority and those reading this and contributing to it are a clear and vocal minority section of the minority!
The members once said that a 4 day Championships was more appealing than a 6 day Championships.  It actually seems to be more like that it is equally appealing.
As this is about the rules, winged rudders have always been allowed.  In fact i think 2014 is the 20 year anniversary of T-foil rudders in N12s so it could be argued that there is nothing new under the sun.  There was, however, a rule change in approx 2010 which gave clarity to "normal rudder fittings" (well actually deleted the phrase as it was so unclear) but this made it easier for people to retro fit more than anything.  It enabled nothing as if you had a set up such as mine, the old rule was fine.   It also limited size which again was sensible.  It is right that the Merlins chose to ban when they arrived on 12s and that does not seem to have been a bad choice for them to make.  They had no boats in the fleet whereas the 12s had not been concerned by more than 10 years of development before they started winning things.  Indeed many people had told me we were barking up the wrong tree!  I think that banning things for the 12 would have been pretty brave given the interest in foiling moths etc in the last 10 years.  
And lets be clear that you dont have to have a DCB to have a chance of winning a race, but you do probably need a winged rudder or a better idea than that to do it at the moment.  3431 (a feeling foolish) is being sailed by teenagers with a home built rudder as part of a school project.  The biggest expense for them has been the new sails.   It is possible, but it is not easy.  The reality is most of those at the front of the fleet chose to buy new boats rather than retro fit, and a further reality is that we all have less time to fiddle / tune our boats than maybe we would like to.
For the record I am off to Salcombe next weekend in a borrowed boat as mine is not available.  No T-foil, still hope to win a race though and certainly believe it is possible!  John Thornton won the October meeting at Salcombe a couple of years back.  We will have fun, will probably struggle upwind for speed at times and will probably find downwind harder but not certainly not slower as all that drag from wings does limit top speed.
Come and join us!
John
N3543

[smilie]

After lots pondering and gazing out the window and coming to the conclusion the answer might be 43. I thought it was about time to stick a post in this thread.

First up like most other responses to this thread I don’t think changing some rules will get more people sailing 12’s. To me it’s a bit like chewing gum to answer an algebra problem.  Also like me old mucka and fellow former cherubist I find myself in strange place my saying now is probably not the time to do anything radical. I also think the members shouldn’t go banning or limiting things just because one boat designer has got the more numbers more right than others.

It also seems everyone was pretty happy for the thinkers and the tinkers to play winged rudders right up until they got them working and constantly started beating people.  I also wonder if winged rudder were banned while the ban would probably not so much effect the  P2’s but DCB’s and Hi-jack. Will probably have real problems with lift when planning from what I have heard on the grapevine about Grazz using his DCB without the winged rudder. The result could be the that a whole generation of boats de-value over night. 
Those are my first thoughts, more to follow over the weekend 

[STU W]

Smilie, this is exactly what happened with the daggerboard and the same chap got that working. It was okay then to ban something which had been around for a number of years........so what has changed now to make this option such a no no?

[smilie]

Having said now is not the time to change anything I’m going to contradict myself but then there’s nothing like kicking about ideas about rule changes.

If there was going to be changing of rules then I would like to see;
 I really think it is about time to lose the centre of gravity correctors in masts.  With the majority of the fleet using black sticks and pretty much all of them bought off the rack. I think the old reason of limiting a masts weight and CG has passed. It just seams daft to keep screwing lead into masts. Especially if when you consider a properly engineered carbon mast isn’t just about making a very light mast with a low centre of gravity it's part of it but not all. You would probably still get a race winning mast by breaking the bank to get an aerodynamically efficient mast with the right bend characteristics all achieved with top end high modulus carbon and adding lead to it isn't going to blunt it's effect much. Also adding lead to carbon masts also seems completely at odds with the word ‘development’ in the class title. I don’t think Merlin’s add lead to their masts and they haven’t seen a explosion of oooba expensive masts. For that matter at the other end of the scale nether have 18’s (comparatively speaking) which pretty much with what they can do with their rigs.  

This may not be the time to change the sail plan but it might be a good time to have a proper look to see if the rig is heading in the right direction. And I’m not just talking revisiting the debate if sails should be fully battened with more area. More along the lines to see if the sail plan as to be as good as it can be the, sails are easy to make, last a sensible amount of time and haven’t picked any strange design details which could be done better if the rules were slightly different. 
 I personally would like to be able to have more are at the top of my main sail (move some of it up from the bottom)and maybe another batten to help keep the ‘corner ‘out. Just because pretty much all of my sailing is going to be inland in light to middling breezes. I would all so like to move to rule package which sees the total area measured. Mostly because I think it gives people more scope to experiment, produce  a better looking sail plan and clear up the odd statement which you see on the website where the area is probably around ‘X’  but only ‘X’ is measured.

It’s also worth bearing in mind the Grad’s have changed sail plan, added more area and it hasn’t effect numbers sailing boats. And going back to 18 foot skiffs again they have a varying amount sail area, mast high and sail plan across the fleet and yet the racing is still very close. It’s worth noting the boat which won this years JJ didn’t have the biggest or the rigs but it was the most sorted with guys who had spent the most amount of time sailing together. Having a Ian Murry as team manager might have helped a bit as well ;o)

I also wonder with most new sails now hitting the max head measurement the class as now ended up with the biggest square top you are going to want on a 12 anyway.
 
In answer to Gnavs I’m thinking about putting one on Subversion but really I won’t be seriously thinking about doing it before next year. I’m also thinking of having a go with a new Grad main on Subversion at some stage just to see what it’s like.

[smilie]

very true. it might have happened earlier if Subversion had slightly more powerful aft sections 

[andymck]

Smilie, this is exactly what happened with the daggerboard and the same chap got that working. It was okay then to ban something which had been around for a number of years........so what has changed now to make this option such a no no?

 
The big difference was the ability to grandfather the boats with daggerboards. It also coincided with a big step in design change at the time.The guys who waited on building had baggies not bouncers. This meant the people who had already invested were not left in a significantly disadvantaged position. As already mentioned, the DCB does not work without the extra stern lift, hence why in lighter winds the other boats do well. It is also not ultimately fastest boat downwind in a blow. The design and wing just allow you to push harder for longer. 
A group of us had this very discussion at the Thorpe Bay champs. I actually used the same arguments you have used here. 
Bottom line is as there was minimal support for a ban. The wings were then sensibly limited at Hayling Island. We could potentially have picked a limit of zero.  By that time most of us realised that they are a good thing to have. They are not an impediment to sailing inland. The only place I would be reluctant to sail would be north west Norfolk, but many have and do. Most of us who do have them sail inland, rivers gravel  Pits etc. I would not want to go back. A well designed winged boat is easier to sail, carries more weight, and is no more hassle than my previous national 12's. What is more it can be a relatively cheap conversion if done at home, and has been shown to work on older designs as well. 
Do the question is, why should we change the rules. Or should we actually show people what they are missing. Personally I sailed the DCB on a river, and in light winds before making up my mind about the subject. I am not using my boat much at the moment, so you are welcome to try it for yourself. I am sure you would actually find its fine .
 
Andy Mck

[smilie]

 What is more it can be a relatively cheap conversion if done at home, and has been shown to work on older designs as well. 

Have recently had a chat with My Exocet Kevin Ellway while looking at photo's of Subversion. Kevin thinks Subversion with her very pinched in transom and fine entry would go very quickly with a winged rudder.
Thinking about and looking at now the Pink Ovi foolish was converted over to a fooling rudder it would be a massive hassle to convert Subversion if was tempted.

[Trick Cyclist]

There is a system in which the adjustment is pretty much all in the rudder stock which requires the minimal amount of work on the boat itself. It is currently fitted to two boats that l know about, dare bary's ginger pudding and John Thornton's chapter. The only additions needed to the hull are a bit of transom strengthening (triangulation at the pintles if not already there and a few blocks and cleats in the boat. The great thing about this method is you can easily switch foils from boat to boat without the need of the complexities of the ram seen on the pink foolish 'Alpha Male' I'll try and get photos of it when l next see John.

[STU W]

Andy as we are talking about trying to sell the 12 to none 12 sailors it is the perception of things that has more impact than actual facts. I have no doubts that winged rudders are great, would I want to sail with one, don't know. Also it was perceived that daggerboards were harder to sail with but having seen some of the street legals and early baggies sailing with them I never heard one person have actual problems with them and that was sailing on the midland circuit and Earlswood club sailing. This was at venues such as Avon sc, Trent valley etc. should have left it where you had a choice but how people would perceive the problem was taken into account by the committee of the time. Problem is, what is seen to be stalling sales of 12 s can only be addressed by those people who might be interested but don't for whatever reason. Those who are active in the fleet will very rarely find fault with the product they sail week in week out for obvious reason, ie we all lve the 12

[smilie]

Problem is, what is seen to be stalling sales of 12 s can only be addressed by those people who might be interested but don't for whatever reason. Those who are active in the fleet will very rarely find fault with the product they sail week in week out for obvious reason, ie we all love the 12

I have got a few ideas on this subject which I will write about more when I have got a mo (being dyslexic pretty much every post is drafted in word first)
I always think this is why the Dinghy Show is a the best shop window and great acid test about what other sailors think of your class. The guys on the stand this year will know how got a show they had, plus who ever it is who picks up the emails from the website from people interested in getting a 12. So I'm slightly wondering if there is more behind the setting up of this thread than a response to the thread you started.

[smilie]

There is a system in which the adjustment is pretty much all in the rudder stock which requires the minimal amount of work on the boat itself. It is currently fitted to two boats that l know about, dare bary's ginger pudding and John Thornton's chapter. The only additions needed to the hull are a bit of transom strengthening (triangulation at the pintles if not already there and a few blocks and cleats in the boat. The great thing about this method is you can easily switch foils from boat to boat without the need of the complexities of the ram seen on the pink foolish 'Alpha Male' I'll try and get photos of it when l next see John.

Cool, I had found a few posts about Dare's system when hunting through google it looks good. I know this is more work for probably a already busy committee, I'm thinking it might be good to have a section on the website (maybe?? only open to members) about DIY winged rudders, how to use them and the different systems of control. Could be a really good way to demystify these foiling rudders to those who haven’t used them and are new to the class.

[jonathan_twite]

My theory is that the winged rudder is like mast spreaders.  Most people have a vague idea of what they do, but very few have a detailed knowledge of how they work.  Most people look at the tunning guide for their spreaders and set them so, and only adjust them if something is not quite working and they ask someone with more knowledge.  From what I have read about winged rudders, this is fairly the same.  They need an initial setup (angle) for a specific crew-weight / sailing style/location combination but then don't need much adjustment while sailing.  The top crews who know what they're doing will adjust them more to suit conditions etc. than the rest of us mere mortals, the same as they might with rig-tension and spreader settings.
 
This is my suggestion then - the full rigging guide needs a section on setting up a winged rudder (i.e. heavy-weight crews try this..., inland-sailors try this... etc.) and its basic control.  This would then make the winged rudder seem more of a major part of the N12 class for outsiders looking in, and may help give owners the confidence to start to use them.  As will all gadgets, its the first try that some people are usually scared of, once they have been using them for a bit, suddenly they realise its not scary and start wondering how to adjust it...

[Mr Big]

DIY stores are going bust, because people don't want DIY. The trade says, people are cash rich and time poor.
Like wise, is the development class dead. I have a Twelve and a Merlin and there are no other Dev. boats in the club, we had 60 people on the water yesterday.
 

[smilie]

reduced in some areas but doing well in others. Both the moths and cherubs are doing really well for them selves at the mo but then there's no one really in their niche.