The future of the N12

[STU W]

Having been an enthusiastic follower and sailor of this wonderful class and having thought of returning to it later in the year I decided to look at the most recent handbook. Does anybody else feel it makes uncomfortablle reading and how healthy is the class at the moment?
when I initially sailed the class in the late 70's boat numbers were incredibly healthy with 40/50 boats being produced each year and many designs being developed. There was a good spread of amateur and professionally built boats which implies to me that we were producing an object that people wanted at a price they could afford while still being cutting edge.
imagine my shock to see that in 2013 there was 1, yes that's right just ONE National 12 built and in 2012 there where 4 while 2011 resulted in the grand total of 3 new boats. Now I ask myself are we producing a product people want at a price people can afford. I have to say purely on numbers the answer has to be a resounding NO and it makes me worry, is this the death knell of a boat I love so much.
Is it just cost, I would say no as the Merlin still holds it's own but it does play a part. Looking at modern twelves it seems they are very complex and not as exciting as other boats in the same category. 
I cannot understand a class which banned dagger boards because they restrict where 12's can sail and yet encourage wings up to 600 mm on either side of the rudder. This I believe would put off,not encourage, new members to the fleet as they seem very complex compared to any gains made. 
is it time to get back to basics and have a long hard look at where the class wants to be in 10 years time and where it is likely to end up if things maintain their current path.
to me the class is being sidelined and is becoming that curious little class that people like to show an interest in rather than get in and sail. A little bit like the cherub, 12 foot skiff etc. I don't think getting over complex would work for us like it did the moth and international 14. Rather we need to get back to being more mainstream, perhaps a little less complex and something that youngsters want to get into ( what % of the fleet was under 30 in the last 3 champs) as well as husbands and wives/ partners/ kids. 
Far from being negative I want to see this once great and important class get back to where it should be. The enthusiasm for Admirals Cup boats shows that people still love what was a great product.
interested to see what people think. Let's get a discussion going

[STU W]

32 views, no comments , ostriches spring to mind
 
bump

[smilie]

could be more bots than peeps?? I will reply just doing some quauilty pounding first 

[David G (Guest)]

The thrust of your post is a good one and obvious to anyone looking from the outside.  12's greatest strength was/is its ability to be rewarding to sail on a huge range of different types of water, with a wide range of skill sets of crew.  It is fair to say that it has gradually moved away from this position for the past 30 years, probably since the relaxation of the double curvature rule, or perhaps when it officially added Development to the title.  However I am not sure that an open forum is the best place to sling the brick bats.  If I were involved in the management of the class I would be trying to reengage with the core historical benefits of the Twelve.  The wisest words that I have heard on the matter was Kevan Bloor at an AGM at Torquay pointing out the importance of building a big enough fleet of competitive (similar performance?) boats to create a platform for good and level racing.

[STU W]

Dave, certainly not trying to sling bats, if anything I wanted people to suggest ways forwards to the good old days we both remember when 12s were the boats to get. It's no point in burying heads in sand and not acknowledging that there is something wrong with the health of the class. We need to get people thinking about how this trend can be reversed and the class can build on it's reputation and grow again. I love these boats and hate to see how it appears to be heading down a dead end. I think you are right double curvature rules and exotic materials may have had a lot to answer for. Problem is I have no other forum to address this in, the joys of open discussion boards.
we all need to do something to get ideas going

[Interested Party]

So, what we are saying is, you have a dinghy class, made up of many designs (over the years). 
The success of each design seems to be measured on its ability to win one race in one particular type of venue. 
If this was not achieved, that particular design was deemed a failure, or at the very least, not to represent a worthwhile step in the right direction.  The 'right direction' has seen the boat become wider, shallower and more powerful in open water?  It has seen it go from, wood on frame clinker to glued clinker, to 4 plank, to fibreglass, to cold molded, to frp, double bottomed, carbon fibre, etc.
Also as technology has been developed and embraced, the cost and complexity of the craft has increased to the point whereby new people are put off?
So the modern designs are now about as far removed from the 'general purposefulness' of the original Uffa king as it can be.  And this has been going on right from the word "go" ?
When you have a boat that is continually developed for just one task to the detriment of all others, over many decades, you will end up with a boat that is so focused for that task, that it can do nothing else.  It will also now apeal to only a few sailors of a like mind, who are in it for a chance to win......'The race'.  You put racers in charge of a class, you will eventually get a race boat and only a race boat.
What of the rest of the fleet?....Have they retired from the arms race, to potter around in their 'non-competive old boat' at thier local club?  Join the vintage fleet?  CVRDA?
I am not a 'died in the wool' racer, but I love my two N12s.  But one is a classic Starfish and the other is a vintage Holt design and I sail them inland, on a lake.  Unfortunatley, I am never likely to go sea to try and win the Burton Cup.  So these old designs, especially the Starfish, offer someone like me, a good compromise.  A boat that is lively, cheap and low tech, that I can manitain myself with a pot of traditional varnish and a bit of time.
So, is the class dead because no new boats have been made?  Probably not.  But are many people are looking at the older boat designs instead of buying new?
Cheers

[Interested Party]

Or perhaps people are just generally reluctant to commit to the major expense of buying a new boat in the current financial climate?  How many people actually feel that secure in thier current jobs that they can/want to commit to a new boat.  This is a hobby after all......

[Martin (Guest)]

I think what is of particular concern is how the bottom is falling out the market. I own a feeling foolish...not sailed it for 6 months..but when I see other newer ones struggling to sell for a couple of grand it makes my heart sink. To me that shows that there is a limited market for  even reasonably priced "plastic fantastics" which in my mind are not that complex to sail. It does not bode well for the future. Will I sell it? not a chance I would rather wait in the hope that prices will recover.
 
martin

[Icarus (Guest)]

Martin, I believe the question people are asking themselves is, ‘how much am I prepared to spend and still sail in the B fleet?’  The unsurprising answer is ‘certainly not more than a couple of K’.  While people have added foils to existing boats they’ve still not kept up with the new designs.  The foil retrofits have either been expensive and compromised, or full on Heath Robinson.  That’s why apart from a couple of very recent designs the second hand values are what they are

 

I don’t see those prices recovering, if you don’t want to sail it anymore cut your losses now.  You call them ‘Plastic Fantasics’, they may be still be plastic but they’re no longer considered fantastic.  The latest foil influenced designs have done for them.

 

This establishes the fact that if you want a competitive boat you need a new one, and £12K is a lot of money to join the pool of competitive boats.  It’s even less attractive when you consider that pool consist of probably less than 15 boats.  That takes us back to Kevin’s point mentioned earlier, a healthy racing class requires a healthy pool of competitive boats.  That pool doesn’t currently exist and so it’s even harder to encourage the commitment required to join.

 

It’s chicken and egg and there don’t appear to be many chickens or eggs.  On that theme you could consider the current financial situation, high fuel costs, the other demands on people’s time, and ever increasing competition from other classes as bird flu.

[jonathan_twite]

In my opinion, this is a development class, what is actually needed is more builders to explore more ideas.  The boats have got more complicated, because no-one has built a simpler N12 that can compete.  If someone could make a boat with just kicker, downhaul, out-haul, main & jib sheets that could compete with the top boats, then I'm sure the trend for more and more complicated boats would be reversed.  If the price was significantly lower, it might force the P2 & DCB builders to find ways to lower their prices.
 
What I believed happen is a change of how people build boats.  Instead of lots of amatures building their own boats, I believe people are buying boats and adding new ideas to them.  Although it is possible for any-one to build a epoxy-carbon hull, it is not simple and certainly not the same as creating something out of wood.
 
As a final thought, there was a new design in 2011, Sweet Chariot that could be ordered in pack form to be built at a seamingly very resonable price of £2300 (minus mast, foils & fittings).  I have no idea how competitive this design has been, but the consept harks back to an older era.
 
(p.s. I have a very uncompetitive Paper Dart but have a lot of fun in it - I believe that there are lots of people like me at clubs around the country.  This doesn't help the visual impact of the top-end of the class though)

[jonathan_twite]

What of the rest of the fleet?....Have they retired from the arms race, to potter around in their 'non-competive old boat' at thier local club?  Join the vintage fleet?  CVRDA?

In the Midlands, we have quite a competitive AC fleet, with a lot of competing boats.  Adding to that the 4-plank series and the Vintage champs and prizes, we almost have a prize for every era of boat here.

[Icarus (Guest)]

Rondar et al valiantly attempted to build a simple budget boat a few years back.

The issue is you require a carbon rig, carbon foils, a fair number of rig controls, and these days a winged rudder and control system.  However simple and cheap you make the rest of the boat that adds a significant amount of cost.

I don’t believe you can build a top flight boat without those items.  You’ll notice that the chariot you refer to didn’t supply any of the expensive components.

I think the suggestion that a cheap simple competitive boat being the answer is so unrealistic that it probably distracts from the important debate on how to improve the current position of the class.  I’d like to win the lottery, but as I won’t it’s not a factor I use in planning my life.

[STU W]

The vintage fleet highlights what I mean, this is how it used to be. The enthusiasm in the fleet was brilliant and it wasn't all down to the depth of your pocket. I know what you mean about the second hand market. 3441 is up for sale at less than £2500 and that boat has a serious record.
i think people still perceive these post admirals cup boats as being over complex and to me the issues are how can we convince people to sail these boats. Great publicity winning the Bloody Mary! And other top 10 results but what else can be done to get people to fork out £12000 when even Merlin's are not much more. What do we offer.
if this isn't the way to go then what can we do with the rules. Get rid of foiling rudders, cut out exotic materials, restrict placing of exotic materials to high stress areas around the mast, shrouds?  
The problem with Fyfe boats kit boat is that they have not promoted the boat at all and people want to see some success before they try some untested product. If they got it out on the circuit they might get some sales but at the moment they could be buying a real dog.
when I started this post I really wanted positive ideas to improve things. I know some of the top guys look in on the forum and I would love to see how they perceive the state of the class. Are they happy with the status Quo or are they concerned too. What would they do to turn things around.
one problem is the apparent emphasis on having a boat to win the Burton  or silver National which does not automatically produce the best boat for the average club racer, who is in many wYs the core. Of the National 12 fleet. Most of these tend to sail Admirals Cup boats as they are more appropriate for sailing on rivers and gravel pits etc. clubs which are at the heart of the class

[Crusader 3244]

Stu,
I learned to sail in the 1970s and the club scene was striking back then. Enterprise fleets were strong, Grads good, Miirrors plenty, Fireballs etc etc. I just bicycled to ac lub not moe than 10 minutes away (Fairfield GSC), donned a spray suit, and blagged a ride.
Some of the best times I had were team racing in Ents and Larks on the Uni circuit in '78, '79 & '80. There, that dates me!
I spent time away from the scene, perhaps 20 years, and when I returned it all seemed so different. You cannot place your hand on a crew like you used to and many who come to the sport want independence and the thrill of holding the tiller. So the Laser numbers really exploded through the 80s and 90s. Don't you think the times are so different from the golden era?
Of course their has been proliferation in the number of classes available to choose from, and the one design, low maintenance, ready to sail types like the RS200 appeal to people.
I hate to get too technical or sound like an economist but the business of money supply (new money coming into the economy) is no longer keeping pace with demand (The collective expectaion of gains) so money has become a scarce entity. Unless a person has chosen their occupation well the chances are that anuual pay awards are not keeoping pace with the rising costs of enrgy and food, so people's level of disposable income has been shrinking. 
The way i see it there are things the class could modify or alter, but the major challenges facing the class sit beyond its influence.
I do think you are right in many ways that it is a shame the golden era is not with us anymore, and that the AC period was perhaps the 12s finest hour, but there is a lot about the N12 that equates to horses for courses, so there are options available for people with alternate agendas and contrasting budgets. I don't regret buying mine. My only regret is taking up with an interest that has kept me occupied and off the water since May 2009. Hopefully we shall wet our bottoms in 2014. 
Something that does matter to the class though is preservation. Sure, more new builds would be good, but boats poorly stored and rotting away under disintegrating covers is a loss of a distinguished heritage. National 12s have special place in the history of sailing, and I hope they have a future too.
Something I have sometimes wondered about is how would you stand building a new boat, single bottomed, and conforming to the concept of an AC?

[angus]

How I love these arguements, everybody has there ideal 12 and thinks somehow we should have frozen in time with that. I kid you not there is somebody out there thinking we should have stuck with solid wood planks and nails and somebody thinking how much better a 12 would be with a spinaker and trapeze and all the rest of us are somwhere in between, but I am afraid you are stuck with us for better or for worse so either put up or get a divorse. Yes if you want to change the rules do some lobbying and go to the AGM but remeber it is evolution so the only way is up! So if Jo Richards has sent us up a cul-de-sac so be it there is no turning back.
I would also suggest that if and when Scotland get Independence that the scottish national 12 will not allow double floors or sticky out things on the rudder and anybody found trying to smuggle sticky out things across the border will be grralocked.
Also new sles is not the onlt way to judge the vibrancy of a class.
He Chris I never realised you were so much younger than me kid:)