Vintage Debate

[paul turner]

[face=Times New Roman]Hi all[/face]
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[face=Times New Roman]Thanks to Ken for passing this on.  Mike says that we can share his comments, can we just paste this into the discussion perhaps?  Any thoughts or do we need to ask him?[/face]
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[face=Times New Roman]Interesting system that the Merlins use for handicapping pimped vintage boats I seem to remember suggesting something similar for our vintage 12s a few years ago but got little support, is worth further investigation?  It would of course mean that all events would need to be timed and the handicaps worked out before the results are known but on the + side may level the playing field a bit.  I too like the Derwent system but to work properly we need the water to ourselves and that has proved impossible in recent years hence having to drop it from our series scoring this year.[/face]
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[face=Times New Roman]Kind regards[/face]
[face=Times New Roman]Howard[/face]

[paul turner]

Greetings - I have tried to post the Merlin handicapping system, and failed, but it looks far too complicated to little old me! Not had formal clearance to run the Shotgun Trophy at L&L but meanwhile a few thoughts about making Witchcraft sailing better next year:

1. Re-instate the Derwent handicap system (it needs 3 events) and if that is not possible (as per this year) then we......

2. Consider giving the older/unpimped boats a minute or twos start over the modern/pimped yots.

3. We mutually agree to keep carbon off vintage boats, (except fittings and for booms for the preservation of elderly and thinning assorted crania).

Px:K)

[Interested Party]

I have been reading his thread with great interest as I have a vintage Holt 500 (672) and a classic Starfish (2383).  I also own a classic Merlin Rocket (950) - although I am not sailing her this year as my crew is a bit small.
On the few occasions I can do external events I usually sail with the Classic and Vintage Racing Dinghy Association (CVRDA).  (google it!) 
They operate 3 classes, Vintage, Classic and Old, depending on the age and they use old money PY numbers based on those from 1965. 
Qualifying boats have to be from a design that pre dates 1965, generally, although they accomodate certain lost classes of interest.
Owners are expected to declare the age and any modernisations to their boat so that their PY can be adjusted accordingly.  This way, those boats that are being sailed 'as they were back in the day', are not penalised too much those that feel the need to modernise.  this actually does encourage the use of wooden masts and tuffnol blocks, and steel centre plates, etc  They even do a 'Cotton Sail challenge' for those boats old enough. 
The very equipment from bygone days that makes some of the vintage and classic boats interesting - In fact at the last event I did I managed to sneak The Cotton Sail Challenge trophey from under the noses of a pair of vintage Merlin's in my Holt 500, Planet, which was nice.
The CVRDA often share venues with the vintage Merlin Rockets doing the deMay series.
I only draw this organisation to your attention as this might be another place to look when deciding on how you set up your future Vintage series.
Cheers

[Chadders]

If we are going to ban carbon from vintage boats we need to give the whole aspect some careful thought for instance I have beefed up my repaired thwart with some carbon tape am I now out of class?  Tim Gatti has carbon tape along his hog is he banned too and as for winged rudders??  Not anti Paul,s suggestion in principle far from it but it needs careful thought and we would need to clarify and beef up the definition of vintage perhaps?

[Tim Gatti]

This seems as good a time as any to circulate to the Vintage Wing some words around a definition for vintage 12's that Kevan and Michael worked up after a Committee discussion earlier in the year.  Of course it takes no account of the so called 'pimping'  that has recently entered this online debate, nor the use of more modern materials

It was intended to clarify what was and wasn't classed as a vintage and to encompass any new traditionally built 12's from old designs eg N3541

"Vintage National Twelve Definition - Any wooden National Twelve of clinker construction, built prior to 1971 and
wooden clinker boats built to designs issued prior to that year."

In other words it would stop someone building a Numinous in Clinker and claiming a Vintage tag, and help to 
keep the authenticity of the Vintage section.

As agreed at the Committee meeting the final agreed definition would be published in the 2013 Booklet.

On the carbon front, I agree with Howard who has also used carbon to effect a repair on Triada, the matter needs careful thought before we agree to something like a blanket ban - for example, Brian K has dispensed with his carbon plate but now has an epoxy glass one that is equally stiff, lighter and possibly even more efficient.Nigel Waller won the Northampton 75th Anniversary Pursuit Race last year in an old vintage boat with a carbon plate and, of course, most of us now  use carbon jib sticks and booms, and what of Shotgun's foiling rudder? 
It's a bit of a minefield once you start isn't it.
Tim

[angus]

I think we also have to be careful over the word clinker, I amy be wrong but I think refers tobuild where the planks are nailed to ribs, what we are now calling ribbys and the glued ply boats are not clinker built.
It may be a bit of an anathema to you guys but what about taking a bit of the emphasis off the winning and rewarding the guys down the fleet after all it only takes one person to win but it take quite a few guys to make that win worth while. I used to say when I was coming last all the time that I was supporting the whole N12 fleet because I was at the bottom of the sheet.
I know you will say we are there to race, but why are we sailing vintage boats if all we are interested in is winning.
Would it be possible to adapt the Derwent handicap to take out the pursuit element making it easier to sail along side other boats?

[Chadders]

With regard to the word clinker, I believe it relates to overlapping planks and not specifically to ribs and rivets and that is certainly the context that we have all used within our class definition for many years.

[Tim Gatti]

Angus - on this occasion you are wrong.
'Clinker', as Howard says,  does indeed refer to a method of building boats where the planks are overlapped. The area of over lap is called the 'land'.
Where boats are built with planks butted along their edges the construction method is called 'carvel built'

Before the days of reliable marine glues, clinker built boats were further strengthened with ribs or timbers rivetted or nailed in place through the lands.
Modern glues enabled the lands to be glued instead and the ribs dispensed with - hence 'glued clinker' construction.
So by our definition a vintage N12 can be either clinker built with ribs or with glued lands and no ribs.
Tim

[angus]

I stand corrected.
Tim you make it sound if though I am only occasionaly wrong, far from the truth!
While I am sure Tim with his knowledge is correct I am sur I have read Can't remember where that glued ply planking is not clinker....The point I am trying to make is that as soon as you start making up hard and fast rules it becomes very difficult to ensure you end up with the right result. 

[paul turner]

"Vintage National Twelve Definition - Any wooden National Twelve of clinker construction, built prior to 1971 and wooden clinker boats built to designs issued prior to that year."

Perhaps to clarify Tim Gatti's new ribby we could consider changing the definition by deleting the "built prior to 1971"? would then read.....

"Vintage National Twelve Definition - Any wooden National Twelve of clinker construction, boats built to designs issued prior to 1971."

Keep it simple...... Px :K)
PS going to re-think the carbon issue......

[Interested Party]

When talking to some of the vintage Merlin fleet at the combined Vintage Merlin/CVRDA events, they can always find a raft of reasons why the fitting of Carbon spars to 1950's/60/70's Merlins is a good thing. 
Slim Merlins do benefit from having lighter spars in windier conditions, etc. 
But, last year, I did overhear one 'wag'  make the following scathing criticism (not a CVRDA member), I am almost embarassed to repeat it, But it went something along the lines of:
"They buy a slim 50's Merlin Rocket, spend thousands of £ buying Mylar sails and Carbon spars, Harken fittings, etc, to try and buy thier way to the front of the Vintage fleet, as they can't cut it in the main fleet"
I would like to think that the freedoms experienced in the main fleet are just a bit difficult to let go of.  Every one wants the best from their boat.  But there will always be those that have and those that have not.  But an arms race could easily be started so a great deal of thought needs to be given.
Are the same considerations, with regards to developement, in the main fleet relevent in the vintage fleet?  Or should some sort of brake be applied to make modifying a vintage boat less desirable/worthwhile.
I am not trying to be contentious or pick an argument as an outsider.  Just as an inerested party who might finally attend one of your events...
 
 

[Interested Party]

One other consideration is cost.  Fortunately, unlike vintage cars, vintage boats are usually cheap.  For many owners this might be an important factor when buying one.  It also might be the only way ine can expect to own a boat of any particular class and it goes along with doing your own maintenance.  Its an important consideration for me. 
I need to keep an eye on the pennies.  This is not just about what I spend on the boat directly - I hope to buy a new suite of sails for Sparkle in the near future(i.e. in the next year), but I have to pick my moment.  But it also means when, how far and where I travel. 
I tend to avoid clubs on the coast on weekends, as they rarely have enough parking, let alone camping facilities.  You are often competing with general tourism for accomodation etc, let alone the 'run for the coast' that occurs every weekend on the countries roads.  I also tend to avoid large professionally run clubs, as they too can be expensive.
I much prefer an inland club, preferably run by its members, with a bar in the evening, home made cake and some space to park the camper, or put up a tent.  Magic!  Makes for a cosy weekend away and enables me to stomach the cost of the petrol to get there.

[Jennie Clark]

Beware making things too difficult for club's to manage in terms of laying on racing events.  We have run a number of 'Derwent Handicap' events at Ripon and I know just how important it is to get the right Race Officer team on board who can cope with changing start times for races, working out handicaps etc.  Let's not take the fun out of racing these lovely old boats - for the helms and crews or for the clubs that give up their time and water to host events.  Make it too difficult to do the latter and you will have series with nowhere to go.
Jennie

[Will Willett]

I recently sold a DB Chapter in favour of a 40 year old China Doll, and last did a Burton Week in 1989 (I think it was) at Whitstable where the oldest registered boat sailing was N-207...  A back in the class in recent years and was at Annandale earlier this year.
I think we should do as much as we can to combine the activities of all sectors of the class.  
As a Twelve fanatic I love to see the modern top end of the fleet as do my kids who crew for me - it inspires them and would be an experience they'd miss if us vintage yotties kept to ourselves and didn't turn up at events like BW...  It's what the class is all about; and a Twelve is a Twelve...
The only thing keeping us away from BW this year was cost and weather forecast.   It would be the same were it an inland event or any other one (we bailed out of Pitsford last year on account of the weather forecast).
A tank of petrol is nearly £100 these days so travelling any distance for a one-day open meeting is definitely out; and if the weather looks like we could miss a day or lose races then we just wouldn't go.  It's so expensive travelling around the Uk these days if you don't get a decent spell of racing out of it we think twice about going.  So whatever the event we decide last minute...
Plus my crew (the kids) are age 6 and 9 so they're not up to long days in heavy air regardless of whether the boat is.  And they're the reason we went back to a China Doll - it suits our needs better as a family and when we go to Twelve events that's when we get our carbon 'fix'..!
We'd certainly support N12 events more if diary allowed it, if weather played ball and it all costed in...  And mixing it up with modern boats and everything else in between is what the class is all about.  Hosting an event inland or just for vintage boats wouldn't change that... 
WW (N2620)

[angus]

S0 3133 slips in under the designed before 1971 rule?