Vintage Debate

[icecreamman]

There have been some interesting threads brought up in the whole of this discussion, but getting back to Paul's initial thought of how to get more Vintage boats to sail in BW we have to first take a look at ourselves. We have only fairly recently in the history of the class come up with the idea of Vintage boats. When I sailed in my very first Burton (full) Week (1971) as it was then I think that I could safely say there would have been next to no what we are now calling Vintage boats. Kevan I am sure will be able to correct me on this, but if anyone were sailing a boat of some 40 years of age she would have had to have been one of the first couple of hundred boats or so registered. I know that Lionel Wilkinson used to always turn up in Gypsy but he was far from being the norm. Let us look at this situation with the glass half full and say we have over the length of time we have all been sailing these wonderful boats that construction methods have allowed us to sail boats of this age.
I do think that as a class we are stronger as a whole rather than spinning off the Vintage Wing completely and allowing it to become a class in its own right, but also understand why owners would want not to sail on the lumpy stuff in their precious boats. We all want the best from our boats no matter how old they are, but as others have already repairs have had to be made to some of the old girls. Who would say that we should not repair them with carbon? I bet that the repairs have been made in as an aesthetically pleasing way as possible without plastering the carbon on view and in your face.
Although I do not own a Vintage 12, I have thought about trying to get hold of one, but garage space precludes this at the minute. If I did own one I would probably also want to sail her with like minded people and spend as much time boat stroking and chatting about the one that got away as anyone else over a pint in the dinghy park after the sailing.  Let us revel in the fact that we can still sail these old boats and just get out on the water with them and show other sailors where THEIR heritage has come from, as without the likes of the 12s, 14s and Merlins there would not be the proliferation of ideas and designs out there as there are now.
I realise that I have gone off thread with an amount of this, but I feel that I had to get it off my chest.

[paul turner]

Sorry for the delay in responding.
 
With respect to future events, I am prepared to go with the flow/majority on this issue. I fully understand that the N12 Champs are generally held in the south, and that it is some distance for competitors like Angus to attend, his presence at the fancy dress will sadly be missed.
 
Looking forward, if the event is held inland, can I suggest it is Midland/Yorkshire area on a reasonably large lake i.e. Carsington, Blithfield, Draycote, Pitsford. Whilst I attend local events on rivers, I would prefer if the open was not held on a river or confined water.
 
The only other issue I have is that if there is a Solo event I may not attend, however I rarely attend opens in August, so an event in early August could be quite attractive (please miss Bass week otherwise I will have no crew!)
 
From a personal view I may still do the N12 Champs, I do enjoy the week.
  
See you all soon.
Best regards
Brian Kitching

[paul turner]

Angus - in reply to your post I think that N3133 should be regarded as a vintage boat, as too, should Tim's N3541 ribby. Just my opinion - of which I take great notice!!!

I think there is a misconception that there is a move to split the vintage fleet off from mainstream N12s - this is absolutely NOT what I am proposing - I am looking to get MORE people sailing vintage N12s by having an extra OLD boats inland champs event in the middle of the country to make it more accessable to all.

I also want to keep vintage N12s cheap, simple and looking like vintage boats.

I will see if many more comments come in and then try to tie the various ends up by doing a summary of what appears to be a broad consensus on:

a) vintage sailing events and
b) definitions of what is a vintage boat (although this one will probably run for some time!)
 

[Chadders]

In support of Pauls key point-  We absolutely do not wish to split the class simply to add another event which will hopefully allow many more vintage boats to attend and compete for a key trophy.  It could well run alongside a general event, our thinking was to not have a clash with say a Gill/National series event so that those with fast modern boats as well did not feel unable to sail vintage because they may be losing an opportunity for points in their modern boats.  Those who enjoy the sea and Burton will still attend I am sure.
 

[chalky]

Having spent 2 years rebuilding N760, I  am keen to get more use from the old boat. However I am not prepared to risk major damage, put an unnecessary burden on safety boats or delay other people's racing waiting for me. Unfortunately the weather forecast looks unfavourable for RHYC this weekend otherwise we would be  getting ready to go....
The 75th anniversary last year was a memorable event despite the weather, we would certainly attend similar events in the future.
I have deliberately tried to restore the boat as it would have been built and resisted the temptation to modernise the rig in any way other than Dacron sails. Overall the boat as cost very little other than time ( far less than a second hand t foil rudder).

[Chadders]

Good debate this one, did you say you were going to draw up some conclusions Paul and have you sold your winged rudder now?

[paul turner]

OK peeps - time to wind this one up, but thank you to all who have contributed:

1a. World Indoor Vintage N12 Championships - contributors appear broadly in favour as long as clearly demonstrates NOT splitting the class up AND not designed as an alternative to vintage sailing at the Burton - I will run a separte thread on this setting out the proposal for 2013.

1b. The Shotgun Trophy will be sailed for at the L&L Summer Event 25/26 August.

2. What consistutes a vintage boat, what should be banned (if anything) should we have individual boat handicapping etc? I think that under Tim Gatti's chairmanship (as Vintage Wing chief honcho) a small team of experts and enthusiasts (Chadders, Ken G, the two Brians, Ed W etc? should get their heads together and come up with a suitable proposition to change/move forward - or leave it all as it is. But we do need to look at the Witchcraft Bailer series for 2013 as we will have had no Derwent meetings this year.
3. Heritage Boats - we have a history and heritage which most other classes don't have - and we need to protect and maintain that, because when it gone, it's gone! I will start another thread on that in a week or two.
 
Hope that I havent missed anything obvious!

Paul :K)
N1650/2020/2359/2399/2403/2487/2492/3157
And I have sold the t-foil off Shotgun! Feel a lot more relaxed now.