Advice please - Yacht Convert

[Buddha]

Hello Everyone,
At the end of last Summer I stumbled across National 12 Number 1297 sitting in a car park worse for wear; after finding the owner I purchased the little wooden beauty for 100 quid and set about fixing her up.  According to this site she was clinker constructed in 1955 and from the Jack Holt of Putney plate and the boat photos I believe her to be a Chimp.  This Winter I sealed a centre board leak, repaired varnish chips, repaired the original sails, fitted batterns and tell-tails.  The sails are original as is the boom but the mast is alloy - the standing rigging is fine but the running rigging could do with replacing next.
I need some advice, I'm a Yachtmaser Coastal who wanted a dinghy to improve my sailing and to make it more accessable.  I've only sailed dinghies a handful of times and all have been the forgving double flat hull type with battered sails.  I look at N1297's round hull with plenty of rocker and the huge mast and cannot see for the life of me how the bloody thing is going to stay upright without ballast!
I'll be sailing on my own initally for her first test under sail-probably on the Thames near Benson, plus I'm more interested in cruising than racing (but I suppose everyone says that at first).  My questions are:
1) What is the wind range for a vintage National 12.  With only me at first I wonder how low a windspeed I can go for (High Pressure at the moment but the forecast is for the wind to get to 5-6 kts).  And also how strong before I scare myself without the ability to reef - the sail area just looks huge for the size of boat.
2) Does anyone know of any sailing clubs that will let me rig test my boat without spending the annual fees...I may have to go back to the repair stage and don't want to waste the cash.
3) I'd like to go back to wooden mast - only 29 years old but a lover of all things wooded - is this a waste of time/money and how much do they go for?
4) Are there any vintage National 12 owners nearby who wouldn't mind giving an hour or two to inspect my work and boat, advise me on the quality of my rigging and generally take me under their wing to prevent me going back to the Yachts :-)
Thank you in advance for all of your comments.
B
 

[Chadders]

Hi and welcome to National 12 sailing and perhaps the first reply but almost certainly not the last one you are likely to get.
You will find almost all 12 sailors and especially the vintage fleet members to be very helpful although inevitably you may get a range of opinions on any topic you care to enquire about.  I will cover your points in numerical order and they are my own thoughts and not necessarily the same as others you may recieve:-
General stuff, the National 12 is very different to Yachtmaster stuff but ballast is not required other than moving your own body weight but as long as you move the correct way at the right time all will be well but dont go too far as getting back in is often more tricky than sitting out!
1  We sail and race our vintage 12s in anything from the lightest air movement up to force 5 or 6 but if you are sailing single handed and are not used to the boat a force 1 to 2 would be a good starting point, if she is a ribbed boat then she may take a while for the inevitable dried out joints to swell and take up.
2 You may be able to find a local club or even use a public slip, where are you based?  We may be able to put in touch with someone close to you who can spare some time to help.  The Association Yearbook lists all members and the address etc and is a good starting point.
3  A new wooden mast can probably be bought from Collars or Tim Gatti may be able to make you one, he will no doubt also respond to your request for information.  It may also be possible to find a second hand one however most vintage twelve racers will be using aluminium although many of the old ribbed boats still have wooden masts.  Wooden masts are fine if you wish to remain traditional rather than be comptetitive
4  Back to where are you, I am sure we will be able to get you some direct help and it will be invaluable in terms of saving you time in sorting things out, it may also save you getting wet or worse if your boat is not correctly put together etc.
Do you have any photographs of the boat and her set up?  That may help us to give some initial pointers.   Please do join the Association if you are not yet a member as the Handbook you will recieve has lots of information and photographs which  will help you get the best from your boat and your sailing and the Yearbook will provide lots of useful contacts.
Hope that helps and look forward to seeing you on the water, my number is in the yearbook if you want to give me a call.  Howard Chadwick.

[Tim Gatti]

Hi B
I would echo all the comments that Howard Chadwick has recently posted.  As a fellow vintage sailor and owner of four very old ribbed National 12's, amongst others, there is no reason at all why you shouldn't enjoy sailing your 'Chimp' single handed. 
One thing you don't mention is your weight, obviously the heavier you are the easier it is to manage the boat in slightly stonger breezes - providing the weight is in the right place of course, and starting out in a gentle breeze (Force 1 - 2) to get the feel of the boat is a good recommendation.  I am presuming that you have all the requisite buoyancy bags securely fitted in the boat??  These are a must and I wouldn't venture out until they, and their webbing strap fixings, have been thoroughly checked out.
As far as local sailing club facilities go - your best bet is to do a Google search for Clubs near your postcode area and then contact them to see how supportive they might be to your having a trial sail in your boat at their water. You might strike lucky.
As Howard remarked, if you join the N12 Association and register your boat, you will get a mass of information about 12's, local Clubs and 12 sailors in the Handbook and the Yearbook - well worth it.
Regarding the question over a metal or wooden mast... personally, I would stick with the metal one for now and get used to sailing your dinghy first in a range of conditions.  Old wooden masts that are in a reasonable condition are difficult to come by and inevitably, given their age, often need quite a bit of work to get them up to standard.  Typically they usually need splitting and re-glueing plus stripping and varnishing and often the old galvanised wire rigging needs to be completely replaced along with many of the fittings which, even when dry stored, are often badly corroded. Based on recent experience of an old 1950's mast I recently renovated, you could be looking at costs of up to £150 to buy and refit one - particularly where fittings have to be re-made as they are no longer available 'off-the-shelf'.
If you wanted to buy new then you are probably looking at well over £800 for Collars, for example, to supply.  (Their basic cost for a N12 mast is £575 + carriage plus VAT at 20%, for a bare spar with one coat of varnish, then you'd need to add on the costs of rigging and fittings.  Add the same for a new suit of sails cut to match the bend of the spar and it begins to get a tad expensive. (But if you choose to go down that route get in touch as I build wooden masts for 12's)
Look forward to seeing some pictures of your Chimp and good luck with your trial sail.
Tim Gatti

[a (Guest)]

Queen Mary and Datchet both run daily pay to play.  Might not be any water in Datchet at the moment...

[Buddha]

Thank you Howard and Tim,
I rigged the boat today and I'm in the process of uploading pictures of Taeping to the website on the boat database section.  I can see from the bare poles photo that the shrouds are a little loose as the mast appears to be raked forwards.  It also appears that the foresail doesn't drop on its own - thinking of fitting a light line as a downhaul - is that what the small brass insert is for in the spray dodgers?  Also the sails were repaired at the Joint Services Yard in Gosport and the chap was delighted to work on mitre cut sails; I did give him the original sail numbers to re-attach but he chose to use the new adhesive type.
As you can see I have 4 secure buoyancy bags: bow, stern, and 2 x beam.  All are secure.  Once I find a buoyancy aid for me I may just give it a go when a F2 comes along...actually quite excited.
I'm based at RAF Benson near Wallingford on the Thames between both Dorchester and Goring SCs (halfway between Oxford and Reading) - I'll get in touch with them and I will definitely be joining the N12 Association so will wait for the info from the yearbook.
When I acquired the boat it was obvious that the centerboard casing was leaking so I started a repair; thickened epoxy followed by a glass tape fillet.  I tested without rig on the Thames and had a leak rate of about 1 gallon per hour from the centerboard sandwich seams.  I prised apart the dry sandwich and hopefully re-sealed it before clamping and tightening screws - I'm quite confident that it will be dry enough to sail for hours, even at the previous rate.
I think I'll stick with the alloy mast at the moment, but I think it just doesn't look right on such a nice boat....but a hell of a lot more practicable :-)
Anyhow, would apprieciate your comments on the photos. 
Thanks,
Brad

[Tim Gatti]

Brad - there's a good and enthusiastic fleet of 12 sailors at Burghfield Sailing Club just off the M4 near Reading.  It would definitely be worth getting in touch with them.
Look forward to seeing your photos
Tim

[Buddha]

Thanks Tim, photos are now uploaded on the boat database N1297 - Taeping
Brad

[Tim Gatti]

Taeping - wasn't she a famous tea Clipper?
Looks good in the photos.  Mast definitely appears to be raked forward - do you have any adjustment on the shrouds - chainplates with a series of holes in them for example? Can you post a few photos of the shroud fastening arrangements below the decks

Will your mainsail hoist any higher? The boom seems quite low and there appears to be a big fold of cloth along the foot of the mainsail

Sounds like your jib halyard is getting jammed up somewhere - a good pull on the luff of the jib should normally enable you to get the sail down.
Would suggest the 'brass insert' through the starboard spray dodger could have been where the end of the jib halyard fed through to a cleat on or below the foredeck coaming.
When rigged with a wooden spar the jib halyard would probably have been rigged with a 2:1 system going up to and round an external sheave on the end of a wire strop at the hounds, then back down to a roller set in the stem fitting at the bow and finally back along the foredeck, through the tubular brass insert to a cleat in the cockpit.
Glad to hear you have your buoyancy sorted out.  If you have a capsize, she might float better if you move the two sausage shaped bags aft and site them under the side benches.  Let us know how your repair holds up when you take her out on the water.
Tim

[Tim Gatti]

Just realised there's a National 12 Open meeting at Burghfield on Sat 24th March.  1st race at 11am.  Might be worth calling in to see 12's being sailed and meet some of the helms and crews. I'm sure you will be made to feel welcome.  Contact there is Jeremy Carey.
Tim

[Jeremy C]

B,

I'm Jeremy from Burghfield, we have an array of 12's at the club from modern to vintage. One particular 12 owner here has four different older 12's including a vintage and does not live too far away from you (checkendon). Well worth you coming along to our open on Sat 24th March at BSC (RG7 4AP) to have a chat with us all.

If you can't wait that long then drop me a line : jeremy@designs42.net

Cheers.

Jeremy

[Tim Gatti]

Jeremy thanks for picking up the thread!
Tim

[alan beeton (Guest)]

Hi
Iam a 12 sailor and a member of Burghfield and Goring sailing clubs.I also have
a chimp National 12. I live near wallingford and am more than willing to give you
a hand to set your boat up.
Alan
abeeton@msn.com

[Buddha]

Tim,
Thanks for taking a look at the photos. 
The shrouds are attached at the lowest bar one hole on the chainplates, moving them down will give me an extra 1/2 inch.  I think the problem may be that the shrouds are a little on the long side plus I found, when restoring, that the mast seat was rotton and leaking; I gently chiselled down to good wood, sealed it and then moulded a seat from thickened epoxy.  The result of course is that the mast sits about 1/2 inch lower therefore the shrouds could do with being shortened by 3 inches...there are no adjusters on the actual shrouds and they are crimped at both ends.
I put the buoyancy bags where the attachments are but it makes perfect sense for them to be under the seats in the centre....I'll look into moving them and I could use the forward points to stow baggage.
I can pull the jib down easy enough just not sure if it will drop whilst at sea or if I can reach it, I guess so...we'll give it a try.  As for the brass eyelet - thank you for clearing that one up.
Thank you so much for your advice Tim.

[Buddha]

Jeremy,
Thank you for the invite.  I'll be there on the 24th March to say hello and see the National 12s in action.
You never know, it could be an ideal sink or swim time...what with the safety boats on call :-)
Brad

[Buddha]

Alan,
Very kind of you.  Would Goring SC be an ideal place? I live on the RAF base but can travel to anywhere that is convenient for you.  I'm away this weekend from 1100 Friday until Sunday evening but should be able to get a towing vehicle any other time that you are available.
You should be able to tell me if it is a genuine 'Chimp'.
Brad