2010 PY Numbers

[Mike S (Guest)]

http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/technical/Web%20Documents/Portsmouth%20Yardstick%20General/2010%20Part%207%20PN%20List.pdf
Some interesting movements...
N12 = 1089 (-3)
Merlin = 1008 (-8)
Laser = 1080 (+2)
RS200 = 1057 (-2)
Rs400 = 950 (-2)
Phantom = 1035 (-8)
Mike S
N3491

[Mike S (Guest)]

CORRECTION
http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/technical/Web%20Documents/Portsmouth%20Yardstick%20General/2010%20Part%207%20PN%20List.pdf

Some interesting movements...
N12 = 1089 (-3)
Merlin = 1006 (-8)
Laser = 1080 (+2)
RS200 = 1057 (-2)
Rs400 = 950 (-2)
Phantom = 1035 (-8)
Mike S
N3491
 

[Antony (Guest)]

I thought that they looked pretty sensible to me, the two most obvious 'bandits' of the last year or two had the biggest revisions and we all know that the Laser has had an awful handicap for years.
The DCB will still be pretty competitive next year, or until the system catches up, as it is a lot more than 3 points faster than the Foolish etc that created the returns that moved the N12 number.
Happy days, sadly i now have to worry about this stuff although RHYC has a very different set of numbers for us to sail from!
Antony
N3348

[John Meadowcroft]

Change looks pretty fair for pursuit racing - my experience is that the 12s frequently do well large pursuit races but will not help a 12 at all in large handicap races - which seem to be much harder in a 12. 
The PY scheme continues to fail to differentiate between when you get to sail in lots of clear air and when you are not sailing in clear air.  Clearly if you are the fastest boat in your handicap fleet then handicap change will not be an issue but for many that will not be the case.
If you take crew skill out of the equation (which is another and very separate debate) - and just handicap the boats it seems to me that in any handicap race the boat should be judged on its own handicap which should then be subsequently adjusted for two further factors - The average handicaps of the boats in the race and the secondly the length of the race.
You still cant handicap changes in weather conditions though!
Or maybe handicap sailing just does not work...

[ifoxwell]

Or maybe handicap sailing just does not work...

I reckon that's the basic problem... but that said I don't think the RYA does a bad job at least they have picked up on the two obvious bandits this year and haven't been afraid to make some significant changes. In the past developments have been happening quicker than the system could adjust for... Might happen to the 12's soon as well if the DCB does prove to be the next step forward in design!
Ian

[chopper]

Think for older boats its unreasonable unless clubs are forced to use suggested handicaps for single bottom boats. My crusader 3179 Gillespie is quick but very dificult to sail at 1089 in most conditions Of course there conditions where its possible but seems unfair.
 
regards Paul

[Antony (Guest)]

Paul,
I agree, have you tried asking the club nicely to take a look at the age related handicaps that the class suggests?  Nobody can 'force' a club to use any handicap, including the officals ones which are designed to be adjusted as a club decides, but the numbers are available and used at a lot of clubs.  I always have to look at the Salcombe YC results sheets to find the numbers, but John does a good job there and the website is pretty easy to navigate...
Antony

[Roly Mo]

We are moving to use of the age related handicaps at Ripon this season and it will be interesting to see what effect this has.  Xanthus is thrilled!!
RM

[angus]

I do tend to agree that the handicap system is full of flaws but it is the best we have at the moment and i cann't see anyway of improving it with out making it very complicated. It would help if clubs were more flexible in their approach.
I do find it difficult to understand the RYA's approach regarding classes that have changed significantly over time, especially when other classes have more than one handicap. Do the RYA take into account age of boats when calculating the handicap, if not then handicap of national 12s will be well infavour of the more modern boats.
The other thing is I agree with a comment tha Ken Goddard made a while ago that the age related handicaps in the year book arenot fit for purpose. Vintage boats now are set up very differnetly from when they where built (except for Starfish) a number with carbon booms and rudders with bigger sails and methods of depowering.
It was very obvious at Burton last year in Starfish in vertually orginal condition while I could almost keep up with other vintage boats in light winds even some AC boats as soon as the wind got up I was lost. No wonder xanthos ids laughing;D
Finally has anybody noticed the modern plastic Solos, they seem to go very fast on their handicap.

[JohnMurrell]

Angus,
The RYA take into account every boat that races on handicap - regardless of age. However as with all things like this its only as good as the data that goes in and one of the major problems that RYA have is in getting accurate up to date information For instance does your club send their results data in? If you were to talk to Bas Edmonds at RYA you would be amazed how few clubs bother to send data to him.  Any club using Sailwave as their results package simply has to hit one extra button and its pinged across to Hamble. I tend to do this once an SYC series has finished or after the Regatta.
 
Also I find that using the Twelve numbers as published in the Handbook works well for Club racing, for sure the usual culprits come out on top - buts thats because they sail their boats well, not necessarily because they have the latest design.
 
I suspect that we have now come to the time for an extra line and that 3415 - 3524 will sail off 1092 and 3525 + will be sailing off 1089 - suggestions?

[johnk]

I did talk to Bas Edmonds yesterday. Up to 2009 the only data that the RYA had were club recommendations as to whether class yardsticks were too high; too low or about right together with the number of results that each class had in the season (10 boats, each completing 10 races = 100 results.

For 2010 they have used race times as reported by clubs and do not differentiate between boat age within a class or wind strength. If in 2010 all the vintage boats go out and race at their clubs (and the clubs send the results in!), this would weight the N12 yardstick towards vintage boats. If the only race results are for DB boats with carbon masts etc, the N12 yardstick will reflect the performance of these boats only.

Conclusion ;-) double bottom helms should provide a pint for every vintage N12 sailor who completes a handicap race at a club who sends in results to the RYA.

N 2607's helm looks forward to receiving several of these pints :-)

[MikeDay]

'I suspect that we have now come to the time for an extra line and that 3415 - 3524 will sail off 1092 and 3525 + will be sailing off 1089 - suggestions?'
John - I'm still not so sure that DCB is going to represent the step forward that everyone is hyping it up to be.  All we know so far is that in the hands of the only Olympic medallist the Class has ever produced who has come back to sail Twelves, DCB is very quick on the sea.  We'll know a lot more after the coming season.
Of course, your proposed cut off point 3525+ would also leave Jo and DCB itself with an advantage over this year's models.
The two new DCBs at the Dinghy show look terrific, by the way  - but (especially with my elderly knees and plenty of short tacks beckoning) I am still looking forward very much to my new Paradigm.
 
Mike D
N353*

[duncan]

Paul, agree with Roly, ask your club about age h/c.  I sail off this at Castle Semple SC, though there are always grumbles from the others  or me   depending on the conditions.  Our national committe also are very attentive to our views as 3414 now is in the single bottom boats, thanks lads, the club won't half curse you now  .  Back to laser hunting.  

Found that conditions are probably the biggest influence ( surprise) followed by the fear factor - the sight of me planing on my side last year had a few keeping well away - wonder why ?  I retired to the kitchen !  Not chicken, just nearly ran out of water. 

Any ideas greatfully accepted on how to stop a boat, already on it's side, boom straight up in the air which doesn't want to stop planing when your running out of room.  Also are you in control, some of the others who won't go near a 12 think I was in as much control as usual ?   That did hurt.

[Steve Sallis (Guest)]

The new numbers look interesting and personally I think it's god to see some larger movements than we usually see. Having said that the reduction is still quite modest. At Hykeham SC we usually run club races for about 50 mins duration so the reduction in handicap by 3 points makes about 9 seconds difference. Still quite a small change.

If clubs are not considering changing the handicap for older Twelves I wonder why not. If you look at the published yardsticks there are a number of classes marked with * and the note at the top states:
"* Development classes where the Portsmouth Number is likely to vary depending on the age and design of the boats.
Clubs should consider adjusting the Number where it does not reflect the performance of a particular boat (excluding Crew Skill Factor)"
To me this confirms that the RYA recognises that the published yardstick is not correct for the older boats and the wording "Clubs should consider adjusting" implies some obligation for the club to actually consider it eventhough they may, after consideration, decide that the PY is correct for the older boats. If they believe that they should reduce the handicap for the newer 12's, unless they really believe the boats are the same speed. If that's the case maybe you need a new sailing committee.

At Hykeham we gave the NTOA proposed numbers consideration, but decided on some different adjustments which were not quite so generous. The basis was that the 12's from the era 1970 - 1980 were about the same speed as an Enterprise, certainly not significantly slower, so that's where we pegged them the same at 1116.

P.S. I have a new boat on order. I was waiting for Mike to register his new number, but I given up waiting and have just registered the number on line. Just waiting for Kevan to confirm the number.

Regards,
Steve
N3436 & N353?
 
 
 
 
 

[Kevin]

Conclusion ;-) double bottom helms should provide a pint for every vintage N12 sailor who completes a handicap race at a club who sends in results to the RYA.

N 2607's helm looks forward to receiving several of these pints :-)

Hmmm, would all those pints affect the Crew Skill Factor? Could be an incentive to join the vintage fleet!
Kevin