What about a vintage 12?

[Overomtimistix]

I've recently joined a club with a fleet of 12s and it may be the way to solve my son's problem. I've explained the handicap system to him but he still doesn't get that I can finish half an hour later in my Mirror and still get a decent place, I suspect that if I get something with a low handicap and finish "first" on elapsed time and then get a low place he will feel cheated.
This leaves joining the fleet racing i.e. a 12. Most of the 12s are fairly recent but I've just spotted a vintage one not too far away. How competetive will it be for inland river sailing? I suppose that a lot will be down to skill and experience.
Is it possible to upgrade rigging on these boats?

thanks

[johnk]

a) National Twelves are much more fun than Mirrors. I have helmed and crewed in both.

b) Children much prefer to finish near the front of the fleet on the water.

c) For the same cost you can get a 12 in much better condition than a Mirror.

d) For river conditions I believe that the N 12 yardstick is more favourable than a Mirror's.

[Overomtimistix]

I suppose I wasn't very clear. My options are either to buy a 12 and sail in the 12 fleet against other 12s i.e. with no correction or buy something else and sail in the handicap fleet.
My real question is how competetive a clinker built vintage 12 is against later designs. Generally flukey light winds (like most river sailing).

I already have my Mirror thank you and the yardstick is locally adjusted (raised).

[paul turner]

Greetings Mr Overomtimistix! Just have a look at the results for Redesmere this year, or Yorkshire Ouse in previous to see how competative vintage N12s can be, both on rivers and ponds, against ACs and DBs. And if you want to take a trip away from your home club you will be very welcome at the assorted vintage events around the country; the "Derwent" handicap meetings make the racing very equal - see Frampton on Severn Report. You will also get lots of help from the vintage wing! Do let us know the details of the boat you are looking at. Whereabouts in the UK are you? Cheers, Paul N2020, N2359, N2487, N2399

[Chadders]

Paul makes some very valid points above and a well sorted vintage 12 competes very well indeed on restricted waters.   I have a 1965 Starfish (N2266) and she goes very well, in fact in the lighter stuff she is faster than my 1991 Design Eight.  The Vintage Fleet is very friendly indeed and we have an excellent open series. with 10 races planned for 2010.  The Class also has recommended handicaps for older 12s which your club may use if they wish, these are detailed in the Handbook and Yearbook. 
Do let us know where you are and if you get a 12 which one you get or if you need any advice on particular designs etc feel free to ask.  Vintage 12s also tend to carry weight better than some of the newer designs.  The yearbook has contact details of all association members so it is easy to find out who to talk to for more information or post further queries on this discussion page.  Cheers Howard N2, N2266, N2769 and N3356.   PS you only need 1 boat but be warned once the bug bites the fleet tends to grow.

[Overomtimistix]

Hi,
I was talking at my sailing club (Desborough) to one of the 12 owners there. He thought that the price for this one (£550) was a bit high.The advert says that she was recently restored.I also saw an advert there for Crested Grebe which is a more modern design.
The pictures of the vintage 12 show a pretty boat - possibly not the most competetive boat but as long as I can keep up with the rest then it should keep number one son happy - winning on handicap is not so satisfactory.

On the other hand my wife asks whether I need a third wooden boat as well as the Mirror and British Moth.

[Tim Gatti]

Hi - I moved into National 12's about four year's ago having sold my racing Mirror as my then 12 year old son was getting a bit big for the front end.  I started with a ribbed, 1938 Uffa King (Mat N341) which is not the standard entry point by any means, but then acquired a Pipedream for restoration (Gnasher N3109). Since then as Howard as noted above, my fleet too has grown - largely through my interest in repairing and restoring vintage 12's.
You are probably facing the classic dilemma for anyone moving from a restricted/one design fleet like the Mirror which is - how do you decide from the plethora of N12 designs available which one is best for you.  There is no doubt that a well equipped and maintained vintage boat can do very well on rivers or restricted waters and the Vintage Fleet itself is very active.  I wouldn't rush into buying anything too soon - take time to find out about some of the many designs, go and look at a few for sale and keep an eye on the N12 Boats for Sale section and ebay.  There are some great bargains to be had - but also some boats on offer that would take a lot of time effort and money to bring them back to a competitive condition, so unless you have the space, time and skill that's a route you may want to avoid!
Why not ask one of the fleet members at Desborough if they would let you try out their 12 so that you and your son can get the feel for it if you haven't already done so?  Feel free to give me a call (07790 615800) if you need any more advice.
Just tell your wife that three boats is OK - you could be reducing back to two if you like the 12.

Best wishes.  Tim
N341, N493, N711, N1183, N2255, N3130, N3227 - check them out on the boat database

[Overomtimistix]

Tim,
 yes I am facing a certain amount of confusion. Previously I have raced in one-design classes - Mirror, Topper, British Moth, Firefly, Laser 2 and not experienced the dilemmas of development classes. I have looked quite a lot at this site and been canvassing opinions from friends at my current and previous clubs. The 12 is a new class to me since joining Desborough earlier this year. Currently they don't use a different handicap for a vintage 12.

I'm looking for a third boat now as my wife would like to sail too - she has done some, but just needs practice. We have three young boys who need to be enthused about sailing and it makes child care much easier if we can all go out on the water.

With this in mind we are looking for something that is not too radical,
Farily responsive in light winds which is the general weather.
Not requiring a heavy weight crew - currently son and me combined weight is around 16 stone and less for son and wife.

Son number one thinks that fleet sailing will be easier to get to grips
with but  I don't think that he will be terribly impressed with the
excuse that Dad bought the wrong sort of boat.

I think the question is less about three boats than three _wooden_ boats.
thanks

dan

[samlaw]

If "wooden" is an issue, I would suggest waiting
for an early plastic boat (e.g. a paper dart) to come on the market. It will probably
be cheaper than a vintage boat (around £200), low(er) maintenance, and potentially
(theoretically) faster in the fleet race than the older of the vintage designs.

[Tim Gatti]

Sam makes a good point - the Paper Dart was very successful in it's time and of the 50+ built during the 1970's there are quite a few still in circulation. If you want to move away from wood completely, then you might also consider a Design 8 - very low maintenance and a very good all round Admiral's Cup design which would be a bigger initial investment but they do hold their price extremely well.  I'm sure you will have noticed there have been a couple up for sale recently on the 12 site. Perhaps if Antony Gifford or Howard Chadwick are reading this post they could add their verdicts??! Tim

[angus]

I started in a mirror and my son couldn't work out the handicap system, he always wanted to retire before we got lapped. The club I was at then had an evening pursuit series which he really enjoyed, then I got a 4 plank china doll for not much more than I paid for my mirror and in much better condition. After that he never went back in the mirror and he didn't really bother where we came. I am now on about my 6th 12, although unlike Tim and Howard I am not allowed to have more than one or two at a time.

[Overomtimistix]

Angus, I'm getting the same problem with my son regarding handicap. I started in a Mirror 30 years ago and there were usually several others to race against.
There are a couple of Design 8s in the club.
Regarding the wooden bit - it would be negotiable for the right boat. I saw the advert and thought that it looked like an attractive boat.
The one I saw for sale is 1702 on ebay. There's also 3456 in Glasgow.

[icecreamman]

On one of your initial comments regarding upgrading rigging on older boats this would not pose any problem with a 12, provided you do not try to put an old 14s mast in its place. Changing a wooden mast for a metal one or a metal one for a carbon mast is entirely dependant upon how deep your pocket is, or how much you will be allowed to spend according to SWMBO. I suppose answering this question is a bit like asking how long is a piece of string as has been shown by Tim sorting out old boats has become a labour of love. If you go for a newer option ie a Design 8, they are very much plug and play out of the box and will not need a lot doing to them if you buy one. The best and cheapest way to sort out this problem is to have a go in a 12 and I am sure someone at Desborough will let you have a go. Another way of getting your son on board is ask him to see if he can have a ride in the front of one and I am sure he will think that you are on to a winner when you buy one of whatever shape, age or design.
Good luck, but as several folks have already said 12s can become addicitve.

[ken goddard]

Two or three replies to this email have mentioned handicapping of Vintage Twelves. It may have been overlooked that on page 9 of the annual Booklet there is a paragraph entitled "Handicaps for use in club racing" which unfortunately I had a hand in creating. You can try that if you like.
However it became apparent to me a year or two ago, that the ideas behind the scheme no longer represented the performance of the various ages of boats actually sailing and a year ago I asked the General Committee to accept some new data that I presented. However they didn't think that I had enough new data and rejected my proposal. I then requested race data from this year's championship racing, with 70+ boats, but no one was interested.
Although the handicap system on Page 9 is still there, I think it is no longer fit for purpose and should be replaced with something which is more representative.
Ken Goddard, N.2300 "Duodecimal"
 

[Overomtimistix]

When I spoke about this at the club they said that the boats could be handicapped differently but the club didn't currently apply this. It does seem to work against my original choice to join the class racing.
How different is the handicap? The PN is 1092 but I don't know whether this is adjusted locally in handicap races. What is the suggested vintage PN?