They're Talking About Us Again!

[MikeDay]

<div id="m11">"Seems to me you guys have no appetite for dealing with the decline of the class ..."Rick - I really do think that's a disingenuous remark.  The Class was here for 70 years before you came and had a go in it for a year and will probably be here in some shape or another long after we have all curled our toes up and the RS 200 is not even a memory.  I have sat on the Committee of the Twelves off and on over the last 35 years and what continually strikes me is the care, energy and devotion that committed Twelve owners give to the Class and its future, with no commercial backing from a trade manufacturer.  Threads like this emerge on the website every so often and the discussion in them mirrors to some extent the challenge in front of the Association.  If there was an easy straightforward agreed-by-all strategy for doubling in five years the number of Twelves built and sailed, we would have worked it out.  The reasons for the so-called 'decline' are many and complex - as we all realise.  Therefore a strategy that deals with all of them is impossible to achieve - but that doesn't mean to say we have "no appetite for dealing with it".My own feeling is that Twelves are now a niche class, but one that enough people still value and want to sail in.  I prefer to think of where we are now as a different state rather than a decline, and the challenge in the future will be to protect that.  Trying to be more like other classes doesn't seem to me to offer any kind of solution.Last Saturday, I was among eleven Twelves having a terrific day's close sailing at a very pretty club in the New Forest.  The oldest boat on the water was built 40 years ago.  The racing was intricate and technically challenging.  There was a great mix of old and young competitors.  The spirit and atmosphere was incredibly friendly.  Twelves remain sublime boats to sail.  Those are the reasons I was out there.  Let others sail Musto skiffs on the sea or RS200s at Queen Mary every weekend - I'm sure that's great too, but we don't all want to do that, and long may there be room for difference.Mike DN3496

[James Taylor]

I have to say to Rick that you came in to the Class for one year ( One Year )  I have now owned my N12 for 3 years and had my AC for 18 months, Only in the last 3 months have I really got to grips with this boat and well she is now going better than ever and thanks to a lot of people in the class for there help, the people that sail N12's are long standing members of the class they have been here though devolopment of the class have sailed these boats some nearly all there lives and yep there are very very good .these's boats need time to understand and when you tune it to that there are the best boat you will ever sail, Yep I would love to win the Burton Cup but that is not going to happen ,but that  is the challenge to be as good as I can be. You're type of sailing is to win win win and not every one want's this, the N12 is a great product and great people to look after the class, I wish I could get to more events but thats the joy's of living at the end of the UK (pz in cornwall). I would love to see more N12's around but this class is here to stay and will be here for a while yet. Some people need to work out that older N12's offer great fun and a low' ish cost an AC is a great boat I was sad to see mine go but she is being used again and that is more important.
 
James N3402

[rick perkins]

I am not trying to be disrespectful to any individual; but it’s fair to say I’m stirring it up just because I enjoyed owning the 12 and I’d like the see the class recover and if it was a class I could compete in I’d buy another.
The class currently has very low numbers of new boats built, small open meeting turn outs and very little club racing. If that is what the members want then that is fine; it is a members assocation, is this what you want? It is just a shame to see the class as a shadow of it's former status as one of THE classes on the UK dinghy scene.
It’s a real challenge to navigate out of the current situation but perhaps the class needs to make some bold changes in attempt to recover; if that is what the members want.
70 years of history doesn’t guarantee another 70

[Phil Brown]

Well said James.

Here we go again. Anyone looking at the recent posts on where we should be going would be forgiven for thinking that we are a traveling class that only does open meetings.
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What’s wrong with club sailing???
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We’ve a dozen 12s at Spinnaker now and most of the time they sit under their boat covers. I know, I’m as guilty as anyone and I’m not getting at anyone in particular, so don’t take offence. But unless we get out on the water and show the kids coming through that a N12 SPARKLES, unlike a Laser that can just be a grunt at times, then they are just going to follow route of Oppi, Topper, Laser. (No need for Laser sailors to get sniffy, that’s a personal opinion based on experience. I sold a Laser to buy a 12).
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Mike, thanks for the post that epitomizes, for me, what N12 sailing is all about, friendly competition in a terrific boat.
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To me, at club level, the “glass ceiling” is largely irrelevant. Mike will confirm that we gave the DB’s a good run for their money at our Open and if the comments afterwards were that our Design 8, with a carbon rig, was a bit slow to pick up on the plane, then my defence is that we were pushing 25 stone in the boat, so what do you expect? My only desire for a DB right now is to avoid bailing out after a sloppy roll tack. (Must practice more) Turbo charge an AC and in most conditions it will give as good as it gets. Look what Jo Richards did with Bouncer (which was built 31 years ago).
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However, this is not a debate about different designs but one of perception, both within the class and by others. 
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Lets get our head “out of the boat” and start asking people outside of the class what they think about us. We already know what we think, this discussion board is full of it.
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We will then have some research that will tell us why other sailors do not or aspire to sail a N12. We can then formulate a strategy to address those perceptions (even if it is to do nothing, at least we will have considered the situation) Only then can you create a marketing plan to put that strategy into effect.
 
Do some market research, outside the class
Formulate a strategy and a plan
In the meantime, get out on the water at your club (and save petrol!)
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And don’t be so precious about the rules, it’s supposed to be a development class
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[Dave Croft]

The age-old probllem for the class is poorly supported club racing. Clubs are where new sailors begin and where people see what's on offer locally. If they go to a club and see a fleet of RS200's or GP14's(!) or whatever they will probably end up owning one. If you want to get new 12 sailors in the class then you have to capture them when they come into sailing. The 12 has always been a good open-circuit class and most people who come in to the fleet and stay, get keen and travel, so club fleets suffer. This has been the case since I started sailing 12's 30 odd years ago and yes I am to blame as much as the rest of us!
So, I would argue that there's nothing wrong with the boat so why are always trying to fix what's not broken? I think it's beacuse we can look at the boat and compare it to other classes, then we try and go one better. We will never know how many new 12 sailors were attacted in vs how many were lost  tothe class in recent years when major changes to the rules were passed but I would guess more were lost than found. In a marketing sense it's not about the product but the channel to market and this what the professional suppliers like RS and Topper are so good at.

[James Taylor]

I am not sure there is much difference between the restricted Merlin and the development N12 rather than semantics, not in the eyes of the average RS200 sailor anyway ...
I think it's a shame where the N12 is; I like high tech, quality and fine design but the N12 has eveolved into a niche where by you need to be very light to compete ... I very much enjoyed sailing our 12 but we are over 21 stone so we could not compete. Plus I like big fleets and sea sailing.
I think you guys need to come up with a recovery plan before the decline becomes irreversible.
I would have thought the NS14 offeres some inspiration.
 
 

 
So Rick with all the information on the website and the help of other people in this forum you brought a boat which I think most people would agree with is a boat for the lighter weights and may be a diffrent desgin may of helped you also give time to undersatnd the boat and what makes is go so then you could compete it is youre understanding that "you can't compete" you were 14 in youre first nationals  if that was me i would be pretty impressed and by this year you could have improved on that is is only youre opinion that you can't do better. Also last year was a very light wind week the year before at Portpean was a bit diffrent, so you can never have evey thing.

I sail by N12 at sea and love it ,wave jumping in a N12 is awesome.
Yes the class needs to move forward and it will as a class, as Phil said get you boats out at club level build good local classes and the rest will follow.
James N3402

[Jimbo41]

I am a heavyweight in the class. I don't mind not winning. I just like to compete and join in the fun and games and good beer afterwards. This class is quite special because it has a long history and it will continue. What we need to do however, is to consider the reasons for decline from the aspect of other classes that have declined and then make a comeback. One good example is the Tasar. This is a one design, two sail, two crew ISAF recognised boat with a very efficient rig that has essentially not changed for 30 odd years. Over the past 4 years the numbers of actively participatiing European boats (Uk and Continental Mainland) has increased from around 95 to 400. The message that they put over is very simple: two sails, no cheesewire trapeze, no hassle sailing 'em. They also have the advantages of wing rotating masts, but that aside, there's not a lot more to it. EXCEPT they do have a MINIMUM CREW weight. That levels the playing field somewhat in regattas....
One of the comments from the guys whom I'm yet to meet are that in a one-design class, any development tends to ruin racing, since the idea is to make sure everyone has very similar chances from the boat handling point of view. What matters is boat skills. In a class like ours, (aside from losing weight in my case :-/ ) designs are there to make a difference. As well as boat skills. In other development classes, a new design doesn't necessarily make an older one unsaleable. If anything, it attracts more interested sailors to the class (provided it's interesting enough). The answer is not to be too greedy when wanting to resale. Also, don't accept too high a price for a new yot. As I've said elsewhere, we need to keep designing to keep on being interesting. Imagine if we were forced to still sail TRUE clinker boats, no offence to those of the vintage fleet, (not stuck on the side of plastic like the Merlins - some interpretation of style in a very leery yot). We also don't need "oh that's not in the spirit of the rule" thing. We're sailors, not lawyers. The class has to get upwind of this and fast.
As to Rick's comments about the NS14, the reason why the Tasar was designed was to eliminate the problems associated with light crews sailing better than heavier crews and driving all the heavier crews out to other classes, (even if they were more boring). The increased sail area enables the Tasar to plane upwind and still point reasonably. This combined with a minimum crew weight of 133 Kg (or carry weight correctors) makes skill a max. factor in a race. Actually, NS14 have an effective 9,3 Sqm sail area (i.e. less than ours) making it even more likely to be of an advantage for light crews. The wing mast makes the rig more efficient, but then this is just an advantage for light crews, who just plane away first from the heavy-enders at  the fleet's tail end. With only 9.3 sq m no one planes to windward under any conditions with a VMG better than displacement sailing and pointing.
So their you have my brain dump on this. I've tried to get rid of most of the garbage before it it the screen. Please excuse the rest - I was late to bed last night. Couldn't have slept anyway, with half of the street celebrating over the Portugal defeat by Germany.
C U all out on the water some time.
Jim N3470, 3130 and Tasar1293
 

[Phil Brown]

I think ISAF recognised is a factor for the Tasar in Europe. It used to be the case, someone correct me, that continental European clubs would favour internationally recognised classes ahead of non recognised, to the extent that German clubs, for example, would always support at least one international class.

This has never been the case in the UK and we have had a greater proliferation of classes over the years.
That isn't a plea for recognition, just that Europe is a slightly different playing field

[Kevin]

As I said recently on another thread, I think the best advert we have for what a great boat the N12 is, is to get sail them as often as we can. There are plenty of people around who are the right size to sail successfully in the class but most of them probably don't know we exist. We should forget about changing the boat but club sail (yes, I do - as recntly as last Sunday) and do the local multi-class regattas with only a handful of large well attended opens thrown in during the course of the year. Gill series event at Royal Harwich this weekend - should be well attended and sharing with the Larks & Fireflies makes it multi-class.
 
I seem to have resurected another recent controversial thread here ......
 
Kevin

[andymck]

As someone looking back, and considering getting back into 12 sailing, some of Mr Perkins comments do strike a chord. I can see two main reasons why there are small turnouts compared to other classes, the first being a lack of competitive boats. The Merlins now have 2-300 competitive boats, no wonder they can get a good number out. When there is a reasonably priced competitive boat on the for sale section, it is snapped up immediately, and that suggests the class is in good nic. 
The second, and at 12.5 stone my most important point is weight carrying ability of the class. My wife and I are now both in the smaller than average of the general population statistics. But we would struggle, on anything other than a higher wind day, as Mr Perkins found out. Although I suspect he would have done better if he had stuck things out a bit longer. 
This is the main challenge for the class, otherwise population statistics will leave you behind. 
Still, if someone had not got there first we would have had Crouching Tiger in the garage, and you will all be glad to hear the 12 is still regarded as the best boat to bring your kids up on at our club, as long as you are not Phantom sized, which unfortunately the majority of the actively sailing dads are!
Give us an extra metre of sail area, or a second full length batten, an I am sure you will never regret it.
Andy Mckee
Any reasonably priced foolish or DB chapter considered

[Phil Brown]

And here's another constant, the debate on designs. If there ever was a disdvantage to being a development class is the constant worry as to whether you've got the right boat/sails/bit of kit etc etc. It's enough to psyche most people out before they start.

Last year I started a thread which went like this:-

"It is a fact that at least 90% of us sail in boats that are faster than us, or with the right bits, would be. So, for the sake of this piece, let?s level the playing field for a moment and assume that everyone has a carbon mast and new(ish) sails.

Right, what else is different?

The last time you raced, did you get all this right?

?     Self preparation ? are you race fit, have you put enough practice in this year, are you mentally prepared, do you have appropriate goals?
?     Boat handling ? how few mistakes did you make, was every tack/gybe perfect?
?     Boat tuning ? was the boat set up for the conditions; did you alter settings when conditions changed?
?     Tactics ? did you not lose places at marks; did you sail in clear air, did you have a strategy fro the race?
?     Starting ? were you on the front rank at the right end of the line?
?     Boat preparation - does everything work, good foils, smooth hull etc?
?     Teamwork ? were you
?     Racing Rules ? do you know them and did you use them?
?     Did you learn from your race? Do you keep a racing diary?

Make an honest assessment of what difference having Design A or Design B would have had in your last race.

Be clear, there is no silver bullet in terms of a boat that will automatically, by mere fact of owning a particular design, get you to the front of the fleet. Time on the water is hugely important, put the top 10 in just about any design and they would still be in the top 10. "

Read it if you like, there are quite a few comments that confirm my thoughts on false glass ceilings. 

Please ignore the bit in the the first paragraph, about carbon masts or sails. You can debate that on another thread please. My point here is addressing the fundamentals and sailing more

 
Right then
 
Hands up who has been to a coaching session this year?  I ran one, FOUR boats pitched up
 
Hands up who has actually been on the water for the specific purpose of practicing?
 
SO please don't complain about designs until you've addressed all the above points.
 
Oh, and I wish I was 12.5 stone again but I don't care, I enjoy it too much!

[Gareth (Guest)]

I'm just going to put in point for the lightweights.  With all of this talk of increasing the weight carrying capacity of the 12.  There are some of us who still just tip the scales at 10 stone and I've definitely stopped growing vertically and don't intend growing horizontally if I can help it!  Would inreasing the weight carrying capacity not just put the 12 in even more direct competition with the likes of the 200(I'd need a crew heavier than me to be competitive).  Us ligthweights may be a deminishing part of the population but the there isn't a massive choice of boats you can be competitive in at 10 stone.  So far I've only found the Europe and the 12 and I sail both (if anyone dares mention the devil boat that is the Radial my opinion of the 12 fleet would go down)!
Cheers Gareth N3162

[tedcordall]

 
SO please don't complain about designs until you've addressed all the above points. 
 

 
This thread isn't about how fast the boat is, (or how fast it could be if we applied ourselves as instructed) but how attractive it is to potential 12 sailors and what might make it more attractive to them.
 
What do people think of Andy's suggestion of a bit more sail (on the same mast, for ease and economy) 12foot x 12metres?

[DavidG (Guest)]

I have tried to avoid giving my opinions since leaving the class, however this is a debate that needs to be addressed;-

Firstly, I stopped 12 sailing because my daughter was less interested in sailing with her dad, therefore the only way to race competitively was to find an 8 stone, this presents a problem because most 8 stone crews are youngsters and whilst it is good for the sport to bring them on, it is difficult to sail with the same crew on a regular basis, particularly if they get into the GCSE phase. 

I might have stuck with it if the technology aspect had continued to interest me, for instance rotating rigs might have sparked off an interesting development route.

However I am now club racing in the Salcombe Solo fleet where we get 20+ boats out for club racing, and I can't help but think that it is the club racing aspect of sailing that 12's have got wrong in the past.  If the current fleet are interested in rebuilding the class I would suggest a more club centred approach is the key issue, for instance if all of the RHYC travelers raced every other week at RHYC, perhaps more sailors would be drawn to the class for the attraction of excellent racing, likewise if all of the Thames Valley sailors concentrated on one venue this might also have a snowball effect.

Earlier in the year there was a suggestion of an open meeting cull, if you had opens every other weekend there would be more oportunities for club racing.

One other point worth considering is that the front of the fleet have been sailing 12's for a long time and are extremely skilled at sailing them.  I would suggest that whilst lovely boats, the current crop of 12's are far more technically demanding than 12's of yore, when they were within the ability of many sailors, in addition, whereas in the past you could pick up a novice crew, this is not really going to work in a double floor boat.

I would think twice before making any more changes that make the class more technically demanding, unless the wish of the class is to become an open meeting only class and be more "niche" than it is already.

Best Regards,
David

[andymck]

It would be very interesting to hear the opinions on an increased in sail area, or improving the rig to gain more potential power. Ted and I both sail a single hander that is relatively over canvased for the size of the boat. This has achieved a boat that has a very wide range of weights, as those heavier helms become competitive at lower wind-speeds. The lighter guys, with tuning the rig effectively, and using better downwind speeds remain competitive, almost to the top end of sailable weather. Although the even shorter waterline on a N12 will give them a tendency to trip up when going downwind, this could be overcome with design innovation. 
The other option, with most of the top boats having so much lead in them would be a lead allowance for the lardier crews!! no., ignore that, too difficult to police.

AndyMck