They're Talking About Us Again!

[Phil Brown]

I was trying to get across that people get too hamstruck on designs, open meetings etc. It's navel gazing and destructive.

Why don't we try a 12 m rig for this development class of ours? Would it make it more attractive to non N12 sailors. I don't think we know because I don't think we've asked them.

However, Steve Cockrill developed an 8.1 rig for the Laser for those who considered themselves too heavy for a std rig and it has sold. 

What about some trials? Any thoughts from our designers or sailmakers?

[Roly Mo]

Why on earth do we have to change anything?  Can't we just accept that the boat is ideal for lighter weight crews, is great fun as it is and that we are actually doing quite nicely thank you?  Burton Week numbers seem to be used as the critical measure by some, but champ numbers aren't the only measure of success - numbers aren't falling for BW because the boat design needs changing, it's just because people want to do other things.  BW isn't the b all and end all of our class, and there's lots going on which shows that the class is continuing to attract folk.
There is a ready market for well priced boats (I've just sold my Cat within a week of advertising it) and we can turn out 35+ boats at weekend events like Hykeham which shows the strength of the class.  We've got an incredibly healthy vintage circuit, and well sailed vintage boats remain competitive for restricted waters,  with AC boats proving competitive on restricted waters and the sea.
If you want huge great meetings at impersonal venues, or think you are too heavy go and sail something else - there are plenty of other boats out there.  I'll stick to my 12 and sail it with all manner of crews because I like sailing 12's whether I'm competitive or not.  The key issue we have to tackle is how we encourage the boats in the boat parks and garages to get out on the water.
RM

[Bob1]

I agree with the comments  on lighterweight crews - that is one of the reasons why I'm enjoying sailing again.  I am light and have short legs so struggle with the laser, didn't enjoy the europe and got bored in the RS200.  The N12 works well for my weight and is an interesting sail no matter which leg of the course you are on.  I also agree about the points to do with multiclass / socialising - I think that is probably why the RS are popular but look at the turnout for Pagham and RHYC over the last 2 years (standby for this weekend - but it sounds like there is going to be a good turnout...)

Clare

[tedcordall]

Roly, Just managed to stop my 5 year old sending you fan mail. However he is impressed that roly sails a 12!
 
We don't have to change anything. This thread is kicking ideas around because concern was expressed that while the open meeting circuit was doing ok, the 12 at club level was struggling. There are some clubs that have a fleet, but not that many. This is a way for those that don't go to opens, Burton Week or the AGM to talk to those who do.
 
However, think where we'd be if we didn't change anything, ever. Uffa Kings all round, anyone? Look at the picture of Mr Jones and Witch side by side.  A development class needs to keep (slowly) moving on and re make itself for the present day.
 
Nobody is suggesting 12 foot bowsprits and twin trapeze, but the sail plan now is pretty much the same as pre carbon mast, but now we can lose a lot more power than before. A bit more sail area probably wouldn't hurt the lightweights but would give the slightly larger amongst us a bit more drive on the transition to planing.

[Roly Mo]

Yes Roly is a 12 man (or mole!) (my 6 year old daughter has made sure that Little Bo is a Mirror girl).  On a similar theme one of the Northern 12's used to sport a very trendy set of Tweenies as hull graphics.  Dave Davies' boy Sam spent hours drooling over it at St Mary's Loch when we had the Scottish Champs there!
RM
 

[John Meadowcroft]

There is a hell of a lot of moaning that goes on about weight.  I am 14 stone, we sail at 22 stone.  I admit that to some extent we struggle in marginal stuff downwind against the best in the Class so we have been sailing a boat which is a 20+ year old design and is fast up wind in the marginal stuff (this is known as payback).  The design is a Final Chapter.  There are plenty of these out there for the heavier types.
We wanted to do better.  We tried dieting but are probably not committed enough for that.  So we are trying a different design.  Rules are rules.  No point complaining about them.  All the books say that more rocker carries weight better so that is what our new boat has.  It also tacks beautifully and we suddenly have a light wind rocket ship even with 22stone on board.  Ask those who were at Hykeham.  We hope to get higher wind speed from sorting out a T-foil.  This may be hope, but we will certainly get some speed from hiking hard anyway!
The thing is we are trying, investing, doing something different.  So can you!  We dont have lowers on the mas of the new boat.  Its not conventional, but why not!  Our centreboard weighs less than the rudder.  Who knows if this is right or not.  Why get obsessed with hull shapes when you can fiddle with foils, masts and sails?  But who does?
As a side issue it is my belief that heavier weights have always done quite well in the Class, although there are probably few 21+ stone Championship winners in 70 years.  There are plenty of race winners, more than enough to suggest that competence driving and crewing the boat is a much more significant factor than crew weight.  I might suggest that the easiest weight to sail a 12 well is 20 stone.  If you are flyweight or heavyweight you need a lot of practice.  There might not be that many heavy crews at the front at the moment, but are you doing enough practice?
To answer 2 earlier points - we have been practising on 2 occasions this year, although neither were formal NTOA organised events.  We are still making plenty of mistakes...  If I had not broken by arm I would have done another one already....  The other point is to acknowledge that frustratingly my boat does have a minor (above waterline) measurement problem which I am now getting sorted (broken arm means i dont need to go sailing...)  The rule that has been infringed is neither difficult to understand or a "problem" rule.  We should not be looking to grandfather boats that are nearly N12s, but rather all make sure our boats are legal.
The answer is not incessant fiddling with the rules.  If you have vision of something different, get on do it and demonstrate it.  Your boat will not be a National 12 even if it is nearly a N12.  Lots of National 12 sailors will no doubt be interested.  The vast majority will no doubt support your experiment, and if it is good they may even be keen for the Class to embrace it. 
Happy times to all.  34 replies already in one day - How many boats at RHYC this weekend?  If you cant make it, get on the water at home.
Cheers
Meds

[Jim (Guest)]

I think ISAF recognised is a factor for the Tasar in Europe. It used to be the case, someone correct me, that continental European clubs would favour internationally recognised classes ahead of non recognised, to the extent that German clubs, for example, would always support at least one international class.

This has never been the case in the UK and we have had a greater proliferation of classes over the years.
That isn't a plea for recognition, just that Europe is a slightly different playing field

Yeah, but the major comeback for the Tasar has been in the UK including Scotland. In German/Dutch speaking Europe (CH, NL, A, D and some of I (Sudtirol)) there are perhaps 40 boats. Tasars also suffer from the same kind of problem re. the Nationals as the 12 s do too. Perhaps it has something to do with treating the boat as a hobby rather than an out and out mean racing machine. (Although if you talk to Tim Knight, you might get another impression. He also owns a N12). As a regional rep. I´ve got to do something about this. Big headaches alround I can tell you. 
I think it has something to do with marketing, but I´m not sure what aspect of it. Next year the 49ers and 29ers(XX) are holding their World Championships on the  Garda Lake. Maybe we´ll be their as well, as a kind of spinoff. It´s very good publicity. Let´s see...
Cheers! Jim (Turkey´s in, Croatia´s out).

[Jerry G (Guest)]

I heartily support John Meadowcrofts comments above.  Margaret and I total 21 stone (a fraction over at the moment - must work on that!) and do tolerably well in the Admirals Cup division.  By all means develop a hull and rig within the rules that will carry more weight but don't change the rules to suit the heavyweights.  If you and your crew are so heavy as to seriously restrict you sailing a twelve then go and sail one of the classes that we are not heavy enough for.

[jimc (Guest)]

I'm an outsider that looks at 12s with interest. A few thoughts...
The trouble with adding sail area is that you need to add an awful lot of it to make much difference. If you think about it adding a a square metre of rag has about the same effect on power as about another three quarters of a knot of wind speed* - ie damn all. After all, for all the extra rag a Musto Skiff still gets annihilated upwind by an International Canoe... So sail area really doesn't make much difference.
The Enterprise Class tried adding a kite for Club raing only. Did thatwork out?
Speed doesn't shift boats. There were more trapeze boats near the top of the YY Champs attendance table 25 years ago than there are now...

just sail 'em folks. That's what counts! Oh and build new boats regularly. That's important too...
 
*because of force being proportional to the square of wind speed and all that...

[Jack Sparrow]

Just thought I'd add a little comment as I seem to have started something.

My comments in Y&Y were made in reference to what makes a class successful. Successful means I think in most peoples eyes, big open meeting turn outs and national attendance. It can also mean large numbers of boats built, the two things are not mutually inclusive. But what I was expressing was that a critical points in a classes life, rule decisions have to be made that affect the class that may not be driven from a technical stand point. But it can be just as important to make changes due to changing sailing climate conditions. All classes exist in a competitive consumer space and must consider the consumer and threats to there share of that market from new products. I felt back in the 90's that the N12 were slow to react to threats from other classes. And are feeling the pinch from those decisions now.

I feel that the N12's rules do marginalise the boat and will carry on doing so. But I also feel that the N12 is unlikely to regain it's once great numbers. This has nothing to do with the boat in general or it's rules, but it's development status, economic, social and technological maufacturing factors. But I believe that the N12's could regain and increase numbers significantly if it were to put in place a set of rule changes that have a given goal. That could recapture the imagination of current and prospective sailors alike.

My vision for the N12's would be something similar to the NS14 ( but 12 feet long ). I think in that design space great things could happen.


Daryl

[Tim L (Guest)]

Well said Jim.

I think Rick has a serious point that we need
to plan a recovery but I don't think it involves changes to the boats
but more in the area of training, fixtures and club racing.  The idea
that we shouldn't do anything because 'were a development class and
will still be here when RS200s are history' and that we should accept
our reduced numbers as inevitable is rather complacent.  The Larks,
Fireflies and Merlins have all made big recoveries in recent years
without the help of expensive advertising so why shouldn't we?

 

Our boats are tricky enough to sail without adding
sail area - the most significant part of Ricks' experiences in a 12 are
how challenging even a top level sailor from another class finds 12
sailing.  Though I suspect if Rick had chosen a Chapter ( I'd guess
there weren't any for sale at the time) he might well have a more
positive view of the class with regards to tippiness and weight
carrying...


I think we tend to forget that our boats
are actually a significant step up in handling terms from the boats
that most club racers are used to.  It's probably significant that the
12ish shaped 200 has a decent skeg on it!  My experiences with Moths
and Merlins in the last few weeks  has certainly given the impression
that sailing a Moth upwind (lowriding) in a gusty 15+Kts is actually a
pretty logical progression from 12 sailing while the difference between
the Merlin and 12 is quite pronounced.  Wednesday evening racing was
touching F7 on the Exe - I was helming a Merlin for the third time ever
with a fairly inexperienced crew.  The rest of the very competent
Starcross Merlin fleet fell in while we just happily sailed round the
course to take the gun - at no point did we come close to going in.

So 12s in general are a step up from other moderate performance classes,
the DB boats are a step up again and arguably the Numinous and Foolish
are even further on (witness the amount of swimming done by very
experienced, long time 12 sailors in both these designs!).  This is in
no way a criticism of Bim - he's done a perfect job as a designer in
designing fast (and pretty) boats within the present rules.  The
Chapter, Big Issue and Annie Apple are percieved (imo - correctly) as
more forgiving but are also (imo-incorrectly) as slower than the
Foolish developments.  I don't think many would bet against Tom and
Grazz winning just as many champs had they sailed these designs
instead, which perhaps may have been more accessible as 'benchmark' 12s.


So where from here:

- Club sailing (again) - for promoting the class, but most importantly
because the trickle down of knowledge from experienced helms is the
main way that new 12 owners are going to progress on what can be a very
steep learning curve and not end up disillusioned.  How many new owners
do we lose each year purely down to the fact that no one has shown them
how to empty their single bottom boat after a capsize?

- Training - one or two full weekend events per year, big centrally
located venue.  As many experienced trainers as possible to give as
small training group sizes as possible.  Main focus to get new owners
to the point where they feel in control of their boat, otherwise
they'll quickly be lost to the class.

- Promoting a more accessible design as the modern 'benchmark' 12(??) - probably a
difficult one, I guess the tooling costs to change designs would be
prohibitive for P&B.  However Grazz has a double garage going
spare...and it must be time for another project...  Commission a new
design for the class as a weight carrying/easier to sail boat of
comparable performance to the foolish???

T

[Jack Sparrow]

Just thought I should ad some perspective to that last but one post, but not wanting to stir things, so don't take it the wrong way Jim. But unfortunately if we had followed Jim's advice with the Cherubs it would be dead today as he was advocating the same thing then. As it happens the Cherub is gaining ground again. But one could argue that it may have had a lot more to do with it's Publicity Officer at the time, but that would be blowing my own trumpet. And as far as Jim is concerned and it seems a lot of people, Advertising / Marketing are the devils work. But if you do it right you can make if work wounders. Mind you have to have something to spin if you are going to spin.
I would argue the point that a N12 is a step up. It is a step up because it's peculiar rules have forced a peculiar boat with peculiar handling and it is something you have to get used too. Rick didn't get used to it. I was forced to get used to it when I sailed them as there wasn't anything else around for my body type, now there is. I recently bought another N12 to sail with my son. And have recently sold it again. Read into that what you will. But I have sailed N12's for some considerable time - that boat would be my fourth one. The other's being - Design 8, Baggy, Wild Front Ear.

[Derek]

Where we are isn't working and all attempts to make changes are minor and aimed at "Getting people BACK into the class".
This is core to the problem and results in demographics where those who would be considered old guard in any other class are seen as the youngsters in N12s.
- I sailed Graham last year with someone I hadn't sailed with for 15 years and her first comment was "Where are the young people in this class?"
We seem to have a lemming-like ability to pick the least effective and most expensive ways to evolve the class.
As a result we are stuck in no-man's land for positioning.
As already said, people who want lairy go Cherub, Moth or Int 14 type boat.
People who want family but still race go RS where you don't have to spend so much time setting it up and the residual value risks are almost nill.
A 12ft waterline is too short to carry two normal sized modern people - this is a boat conceived in the '30s as a training class for the only other nationally known class then - the Int 14. It was therefore intended for two young people as defined between the wars = rather smaller than today. Every development since has made the boats more weight sensitive.
Reducing the weight of the boat simply increases the proportion of the all-up weight that is crew - hence INCREASES the sensitivity to crew weight.
The sail area is low and the boat is not excessively difficult to handle - a sail area increase could help and is something that could be easily enacted on existing spars at minimum cost.
Simple is good.
Cheap is good.
Robust is good.
Fast and difficult to sail is characterful - could be good.
As the situation becomes more serious and the average age becomes older we become even less likely to make the scope of change necessary.
We need more change not less. The class was at it's most healthy when people were being granted concessionary certificates to try things that were deliberately beyond the existing class rules.
The resistance that has built up as people have invested huge sums in expensive boats makes the established top of the fleet reluctant to change - and give up their advantage and investment.
Well that should have alienated half the class - but I feel better for firing it off anyway. Hands up those who expected daggerboards to appear in this tirade?!
Good luck and thanks to all of you still fighting the good fight for the class.
It is easy to criticize and often thankless to work to be rewarded with people like me taking cheapshots.
See you at Salcombe!
 
Derek  N3510
 

[Jack Sparrow]

We need more change not less. The class was at it's most healthy when people were being granted concessionary certificates to try things that were deliberately beyond the existing class rules.
The resistance that has built up as people have invested huge sums in expensive boats makes the established top of the fleet reluctant to change - and give up their advantage and investment.

 

Well said. In a nutshell you sumed it up.

[antony (Guest)]

Derek,
I am not sure that you are right about the inertia coming from the front of the fleet or the people with the newest boats.  I am certainly not standing in the way of any change that the fleet believes will result in a stronger class and i have one of the newest boats around.  What is missing is a clear view of what the 'class' does want, and that is because as usual our 70 year old class has about 70 different views on that point.  You only have to read the last 42 posts to realise that there are a lot of wildly divergent opinions out there.
Antony