They're Talking About Us Again!

[John Meadowcroft]

Enjoying the debate, although I am not convinced it has yet thrown up the universal solution that everyone will buy into.
I entirely agree with Antony.  I think that there is a substantial myth about those at the front of the fleet with newer boats not being prepared to invest.  Antony speaks for 3514, I speak for 3515 and I assume that Derk you speak for 3510.  So that means 3 of the last 8 boats registered dont have problems with change...  I cannot speak for others though. 
Anyone out there with a 10+ year old boat prepared to invest?
Meds

[Jimbo41]

Well said. In a nutshell you sumed it up.

Design changes DO have a place in a development class. Cherubs develop quickly, we go at a snail's pace. Why? Possibly because those who sail a 12 are perhaps a little more conservative?
The last major design change to the class was the introduction of DB fully self-draining boats. Did anyone stand in the way of this and why? One interesting posibility would be to allow wing masts, diamond spreaders and a moderately increased sail area. Somone mentioned the use of dispensation certificates. I think we should use them now. Anyone who is prepared to take a risk in investment for the class' sake should be applauded, especially if it results in an interesting avenue to be explored. I also think the debate about daggerboards or not is a load of tosh. The dagger is more efficient and there are many classes with them. Either you bash up the dagger, or you rip your rudder off, either way there's expense involved. Rather that than having to compromise on efficiency. The classes with them don't have problems with resale, possibly because the boats are not overpriced in the first place...
Braindumping again.
Jim.
 
 
 

[rick perkins]

Well said. In a nutshell you sumed it up.

Owning a N12 is "high maintainance" compared to owning most dingies; and expensive so if people are going to do it sailing the boat must offer somthing more than other classes  ...
The n12 to me looks like an old fashioned boat built with high tech materials; the designs are all many years old and the sail plan even older.
You many struggle to improve the weight carring a great deal but the sail plan could be brought upto date with a rotating mast with fully battened sails like the NS14.

[Derek]

It is a healthy debate whatever the outcome.
The frustration is that the debate has continued for so long without a concensus emerging that it should, by now, be apparent that if a decision is not made to make a significant change that inevitably alienates a significant number of people, nothing will ever change (improve) the current downward spiral.
We do risk a version of analysis paralysis where those who shout loudest are those trying to stop any particular evolution and hence no evolution occurs.
This is not really the spirit of a development class which should be "go-until-told-to-stop" not "what -am-I-allowed-to-do".
Do the majority WANT the status quo?
Do you want a true development class?
My boat is new but is exactly as I would have built it 10 years ago.
Derek 3510
PS
I accept that people don't build their own boats any more except for a very few people. And that people don't have time to do all the things involved in developing more innovative boats - that is why RS's and similar production boats are very well positioned for today's market.
My point is that we cannot, with a development class, compete in that sector.

[Jack Sparrow]

The last major design change to the class was the introduction of DB fully self-draining boats. Did anyone stand in the way of this and why?
 

It took a long time ( Ask Mr Peebles ). And could be argued that the time it took was a resultant factor of today's situation. And if at that time other rule changes had been made this debate, I suggest would not be happening.


As for rule changes as of today I would suggest allowing a little more gunwale over hang, a reduction in rise of floor mid length width measurement and a different way of measuring your sails whilst freeing up the sail plan ( that doesn't mean spinnakers! ). I don't think dagger-boards are a good idea.

[Phil Brown]

Rick
Where does "high maintenance compared to other boats" come from. Explain
Yes, if you have a wooden boat you have all the joys of varnishing etc, but a glassfibre boat? Surely not.
 
There is more CHOICE, you have to make one.

There is more FREEDOM, you are not constrained by rigid class rules that only allow specific fittings in specific locations

OK, if you want, go buy one of the standard off the shelf, don't have to think about it packages from the likes of Laser, Topper or RS, you can even buy rotomoulded boats that are built like brick whatsits that are all but indestructable

If you're talking about sails, I don't see that as any more expensive than other classes and if you want to talk about Lasers, it's a brand new sail for every regatta at £465 a go because one windy race and they are shot.
 
This is not that type of boat and long may it remain like that
 
There are some popular myths and serious issues about perception and demographics that need addressing and at Spinnaker we have a shortage of crews that is keeping people from being on the water and probably has something to do with both the other factors
 
From Meds new boat, it looks as if the heavywights now have some hope so lets get on with tackling the issues
 
. . . we need a plan
 

[Martin]

 
. . . we need a plan
 

And doing nothing again is not it.......................

[Phil Brown]

......and a plan has to based on
 
Market research -  which means talking to people inside and outside the class and recording those views
 
from which a Strategy can be developed
 
from which a Plan can be formed.
 
There is an old adage that says if the only reason you can think of as to why you are doing something is that you have always done it like that, it's time to question why you are doing it.
 
Now the answer to that question might be that you have been doing the right thing all along and nothing more need to be done, you've just forgotten the precise reason . . . but my gut feel is that that wouldn't be the case here.
 
It's more than clear from this thread and others that there is not an easy or quick solution but delay in the process will not help our cause

[Jimbo41]

I think that there is a substantial myth about those at the front of the fleet with newer boats not being prepared to invest.  Antony speaks for 3514, I speak for 3515 and I assume that Derk you speak for 3510.  So that means 3 of the last 8 boats registered dont have problems with change...?
Meds

Ok. Two of those boats are built to a plan from 1996. I don't know how yours differs Meds, but if it is a true weight carrier, it must be fairly radical. .
As for real design changes, I agree with Rick re. some kind of rotating rig setup, fully battened and a 1/3 increase in effective sail area. I personally would like it set reasonably low, so we don't have to use a trapeze. NS14 have it high up to compensate for their 9.3 sqm. The wind speed is higher up top in laminar flow.
I really like 12s, but we're going to have to do both marketing AND redesigning to get away from the pontoon and avoid ourselves getting "Boxed in" by rules. ('scuse the pun . Otherwise we should get used to the accusations that we're really a restricted class (design, viewpoint, whatever) and then take the rap and a long, slow run downhill. I think designer dispensations should be the order of the day. We have been able to accommodate all sorts of different viewpoints, designs and subdivisions into the class. Dispensation enables a boat to be built, tested and sailed afterwards, even if it is a flop. Let the people try before they decide, rather than decide before they try. Oh, and no more "you can't have that" type of rule.
 
Jim.
 

[sophie (Guest)]

So who is going to put their head above the parapet and volunteer to move this forward - the likes of John, Antony, Graham and everyone else on the committee are already committing huge amounts of time to the class, just to keep us where we are. We shouldn't rely on our already overloaded volunteers, we need some new people to either lighten the load of the current committee, or take on the new stuff.

[Martin]

I guess we will be damned if we do something and damned if we do nothing.  I get the feeling that there the desire within the class to move our boat forward is gaining momentum and I would urge the powerbrokers to make it happen.
     

[James Taylor]

I would love to Invest Meds, I would love to Buy Max, but money isn't there and at the end of the day for me at the minute is to sort out a wedding date and get enough money to get married !!!!! but as Antony knows I have talked about building my own ,again it's down to money, But have a new job next week building powerboats so may have found some space just need to save really hard for a few years first,
 
I don't know Why some people say they are a high maintance boat as since we have got the new mast and sails two years ago I have not spent any money apart from this year as I need a new cover which every boat needs from time to time.
James N3402

[Alex D]

My $0.02 worth.
Looking at an example of a class that has died (apologies if you sail one).... The Marauder was reinvented from the Mirror 14, by adding a Genoa and venting some tanks. It became powered up and great to sail on the sea.  The next change was the introduction of the first GRP boat which killed the fleet.
 
The reason I raise this is that change can make it go either way.
The Vintage and AC fleets help protect against this, but could the fleet still operate with four categories?

My view is that we need to build more boats.  This results in a larger number of newer competitive boats and more people wanting to use them on the water, a healthy second hand market and volume for the builders which allows costs to be kept under control.
The problem here is we are the ones who have to build them or get them built

If you are really driven then build out of class with your ideas for change and prove the concept to the rest of the class.

[Fran G (Guest)]

I was also a little bit surprised to read that 12s are high maintenance.  In 8 years of owning 3431 I have only ever bought sails every two years and occasionally seem to need a new cover/trampoline for the squirrels.  As James said all classes need new sails and new covers every now and then.  I probably do 30 minutes of rope swapping every two years on the Saturday of Burton Week and she seems to survive remarkably well.
 
And in answer to Meds' question - I have a ten year old boat and would invest in something different if I thought it would have any positive impact on my sailing.
 
And the racing on Sunday made my two hours of boat maintenance in the last 8 years all worthwhile.

[Jimbo41]

I guess we will be damned if we do something and damned if we do nothing.  I get the feeling that there the desire within the class to move our boat forward is gaining momentum and I would urge the powerbrokers to make it happen.
     

Let's try sailplan and rig first, hull later. A 1/3 - 1/2 increase in sail area, fully battenend, passive .Sailplan low set, but enough to start planing well to windward, wing mast deck stepped with boom arrest arm (NS14/TASAR type). Mast flexible enough to bend significantly along ist entire length, just with the kicker and independently of the amount of pull on the mainsheet. Daggerboard no probs with water displacement - never mind the resail value. Certainly not boring and worth trying.
Remove the prohibitions/inhibitions.
Just a thought.
Jim.